Facilitating Process with Christina Cleveland

“You don’t need to have all the answers. You need to discover the information to help inform what the decision may be. “

-Christina Cleveland

Ever wondered what it might be like to lead Learning in a very large company with a senior leadership team that talks regularly about concepts like growth mindset?  Are you curious about what innovative new practices are being adopted by  the more massive organizations who have put significant effort and investment into building their learning teams and programs? Then this episode is for you!

My guest is Christina Cleveland who is the Senior Director of Learning and Performance, Strategy and Innovation at RBC. In her role, she oversees the learning strategy for human-centric and future focused skills, core compliance, performance enablement and what she refers to as learning modalities for tomorrow.  Christina is a highly skilled talent leader with experience in both consulting and as a corporate learning professional.  She fell into learning early on in her career and went on to complete her B.Ed in Adult Education as well as a brain-based coaching certificate.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

🍏  What are adaptive micro-learning experiences 

🍏  The importance of user experience design in shaping content and delivery modalities

🍏  Why it’s important for talent leaders to not be afraid to paint a picture of risks or point out where things may not work

About Christina Cleveland:  Senior Director - Learning & Performance, Strategy & Innovation
Christina leads RBC’s Strategy & Innovation team in Learning & Performance which covers the portfolios of Compliance, Innovation, Performance Enablement, Learning Product & Program Management. Christina brings experience managing complex global projects, empowering high-performing teams and developing people and leadership strategies to maximize organizational effectiveness. 

Christina earned her B.Ed majoring in Adult Education from Brock University and her B.A. and Professional HR Management Certificate from York University.  She holds her CTDP Designation with the Institute for Performance and Learning and is a Certified Brain Based Coach through the NeuroLeadership Institute.

Links

• Christina Cleveland on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinacleveland/ 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa: Have you ever wondered what it might be like to lead learning in a company that talks regularly about concepts like growth mindset? Are you curious about what innovative new practices are being adopted by the more massive organizations who've, who've put significant effort and investment into building their learning teams and programs.

Then this episode is for you. My guest is Christina Cleveland, who is the senior director of learning and performance strategy and innovation at Royal bank or RBC, as it is typically called in her role. She oversees all the mandated employee training performance management learning programs and what she refers to as learning model.

For tomorrow, Christina is a highly skilled talent leader with experience in both consulting and as a corporate learning professional. She and I met several years ago and every time we catch up, I'm struck by how much I learned and by how genuine she is, you're in for a treat with this episode. Enjoy.

Hello, and welcome to talent management truths. your host, Lisa Mitchell. And today I'm joined by Christina Cleveland. Christina is the senior director of learning and performance in the S in the strategy and innovation section at RBC currently, Christina and I go back a ways. She had. Many years, deep, broad experience in the talent management field.

She holds her CTD P designation and is also a certified brain-based coach through the NeuroLeadership Institute. She has all kinds of stories to share with us and examples of best practices and lessons learned. So I know this is going to be a really great conversation. Christina to the show.

[00:03:29] Christina: Thanks so much, Lisa. Great to be. 

[00:03:31] Lisa: tell me a little bit about your career journey. How did you end up in, in this wonderful complex field that we are in

[00:03:41] Christina: So, I mean, interestingly and I think many HR and especially learning and talent professionals find themselves having follow-up. To this profession and that's certainly what happened for me. I was working in

a rapidly growing financial service organization happened to be working in the call center, sales and service at the time because they were growing so rapidly, they were hiring really rapidly as well.

And was. Quick that you would move up this kind of escalator to be more senior in, in terms of the team. And then I helped starting with recruiting and hiring an onboarding, a new employees started informally training them, then it turned into a formal role, which then moved into the HR and learning teams.

So I was fortunate that I discovered very early what I enjoyed to doing and happened to be going through and post-secondary education at the time. And So it was completing my, my business degree. Went and did my HR certificate and then actually went back and did a bachelor of education as well.

[00:04:32] Lisa: So it all kind of dovetailed for you.

[00:04:34] Christina: Yeah, I was, I was lucky that I, again, like, I just sort of picked up on it early was working in an environment where the conditions allowed that kind of opportunity to flourish for me. And I seized the moment when it presented itself. 

[00:04:45] Lisa: Carpe diem. 

[00:04:47] Christina: Yeah. 

[00:04:47] Lisa: to hear. So, and when you think about those, those early days leading up to now, how did you get mentored along the way? Anybody stand out to you?

[00:04:57] Christina: A lot stand out to me actually. And I think, you know, I, I was somebody who sought out the opportunity to be able to connect with different leaders. I have had some amazing leaders in my career. I've also had some leaders that, you know, perhaps our styles might not necessarily have been a great alignment and match, but you learn a lot from those experiences.

And so in terms of seeking out the, the mentoring, I think just being open to feedback, being open to coaching, being open to different perspectives allowed me to integrate some of those approaches the organization I was with previous to where I am now, I was there for. A lengthy period of time, about 13 years and had the gift of some very deep mentoring relationships in that organization and a very strong leadership who had a different background instead of experience and skills than I did.

And, we respected that about each other and we're able to optimize that each other as well. And that created a great environment for me to be able to learn to provide.

[00:05:54] Lisa: So, so tell me a little bit about your, your current role in terms of what you're responsible for. What is strategy and innovation within the learning and, learning and performance area.

[00:06:04] Christina: Yeah. So, I mean, we are broader team across learning and performance and several different areas where we focus. I am part of the strategy team. So our role is to partner with different areas across HR and our talent strategy team to. If I were learning as an enabler of performance. So within our mandate, right now, we have a performance enablement, which is focused on our performance management practices.

We have our product and program management. so that's where we identify, you know, the skills that we're looking to develop the capabilities that we're building and making sure that we have a. Great robust suite of learning options and offerings to be able to serve our employees. And then I also have our compliance team that is focused on our, you know, regulatory mandated learning that needs to be engaging and its own right.

Given that it's critically important to managing and mitigating risk for us. And then finally our innovation portfolio is really focused on learning modalities for tomorrow. So I'm very fortunate to have the opportunity to work with some brilliant minds who have. Very curious, very creative and constantly seeking out what new trends emerging opportunities there are in the learning and performance space.

And we're well supported by our leadership as well to test and test and learn through those experiences. Get user feedback and, you know, see how they might be able to support and enable our broader straps.

[00:07:21] Lisa: So what's an example. I'm so curious of learning modalities for tomorrow.

[00:07:25] Christina: Right now we are focused on adaptive microlearning experiences. So kind of combining the brain science aspect with you know, learning and performance keeping learning a little bit more bite sized, digestible chunks that learners can absorb as they go. So in the flow of work but also it comes with detailed metrics so that you're able to actually assess a learner's capability as well.

The confidence in the content as they start moving forward and learning there's gamification integrated into this. It's very easy to get lost in the, the games that. And set off on challenges with peers, but it's a, it's a fun and certainly a more engaging way to learn that aligns a lot more with the lived experiences that we have outside of work.

Right. You know, there's so many apps and, you know, capabilities and, you know, ways that we can serve ourselves with information outside of our workplaces. What we're looking at Right. now is how we bring that experience consumer level experiences into our organization.

[00:08:18] Lisa: Right. Yeah. it's interesting. Cause I think you know, long gone are the days where you know, a week long, for instance, leadership program, you know, like there were several companies kind of boutique companies that would offer these week-long experiences you know, offsite and so on. And that's just not something that's seems to be doable or considered realistic anymore.

It's also not necessarily. The best way to maximize the learning experience because we learn over time. know, I find it interesting that, the wisdom has been let's sense, you know, fix these people, train them, right. 

it used to be the old adage. Right. You know, client would sort of prescribed, we need training and okay.

Let's provide training in the day. And that's been something that I was really advocating for early on, which was. Okay, let's talk about what we're actually trying to solve for and is a course, really the answer, or is it more around performance support on the job or is it more around those micro bites of learning 

and creating an action reflection learning cycle versus your binder?

Here's the course. And now go back and everything's dropped you. Might've had a couple of moments of inspiration, but that's it.

[00:09:23] Christina: Yeah, those vinyl trophies, those binders. 

[00:09:26] Lisa: The final. 

[00:09:27] Christina: Yeah, but you know what, Lisa, I, think sometimes it just depends on what you're trying to achieve, right? Like what is the desired outcome? Because some of those deeper more immersive experiences are necessary. To really affect measurable change. And depending on what capabilities you're actually looking to build and appreciating the amount of distraction in our environment, sometimes it can be difficult for the brain to be able to focus.

So, you know, being able to go deep, if you can truly cut off all of the other distractions. It's it, it will be helpful in being able to actually absorb the information and again, just kind of have that distraction free environment. So, you know, there's something to be said about those immersive experiences, for sure.

But I think, you know, altogether in the flow of work, you've got to have a balance and a blend depending on what your objectives are.

[00:10:11] Lisa: Yeah, I, you make a good point. I, I can, I can think about you know, for instance with my coaching education, where it was, you know, a week at once, and 

was go out and start doing the work, and there were other ways to keep the learning and the reflection going and then come back in a week and so on.

And, and that was very, very powerful, partly because of the. That you build with that cohort. And the time to really sift and be with the content

[00:10:37] Christina: For sure. And that you can be present in the moment. Right. And I think this large scale pivot that we've made to virtual delivery, which there was virtual enabled classrooms before there will be, you know, long after the pandemic. But what I have noticed is this trend of, okay, Well,

I'm going to sign up for a program, but I'm going to be maybe half an hour late because I'm going to go participate in this meeting, or I'm going to step out because I have to take this particular call and like, I do that to your brain, right?

It's also not fair to the participants that are in the class or group with you. It's not necessarily fair to the facilitator either who has planned an experience based on, you know, expecting active and needing active participation. But I think that that's something that learner needs to drive and really influence and make the commitment to yourself.

Right. It's sort of like if you've made a commitment to learn what you need to then be present. Yeah, Absorb it maximize it, make the most of it, block out the distractions and allow yourself to just really depend.

[00:11:30] Lisa: Yeah, that's certainly an invitation I offer before I facilitate anything which is be present. How can we get grounded? And how can you really check in, sure that you can eliminate as many distractions as possible. 

What I think would be interesting for people to, to hear about is in a large organization like yours, what are some ways you do try to affect people's attitudes and behaviors around how they treat learning events, learning in general?

[00:11:58] Christina: We have a very spirited organization when it comes to learning. In fact, it's like built into our leadership model and our core values to adapt quickly and always learn. And so I think that this notion of always learning helps us all kind of connect to not learning, not necessarily being an event or a thing.

But rather being something that is, you know, more of a verb and that there's action orientation around it and it's always happening. So, you know, Into a meeting you can learn from the people that are around you. If you're taking on a new project or assignment, you can learn by testing through different approaches.

So, our core leadership is very invested in making sure that we create a safe environment where people can. Through things where we can try new things or their safety in those experiences. And that matters, right? So in an organization of our size as well, it creates a great deal of flexibility for people to move between various lines of business platforms, levels, roles take on new opportunities, participate in mints.

And because of that, you've got to have this mindset that allows you to be adaptable, allows you to be flexible and just. Be a sponge, right. Soak up as much as you can take those experiences and those insights and then translate them to the next gig that you might be moving towards. And I know I kind of meant made, made this mention of gig and this notion of, you know, the, the gig economy and people having shorter stints in respect of roles.

And I think, you know, for sure that that plays a role in our organization and many organizations as well, but, you know, you just think. What rich opportunities you get from some of those innovative experiences and just the chance to change your environment, change the context that you're working within.

It's like pressing a reset button, right. And a great opportunity to just sort of put into practice things that you, you know, and can do as strengths, but also humbles you on the things that you've got some opportunity to flex on. So I think that that's, that's part of the excitement that gets created around learning in our organization and something that we really saw. 

[00:13:47] Lisa: It sounds very much like it's embedded in the system. You know, there's, it's an ecosystem where it's really threaded throughout this concept of you're always learning.

[00:13:55] Christina: Absolutely. I mean, but we will also be the first to admit that there's always room for us to grow. Right. And I think that's where that, that growth mindset continues to play. User experience design is really important to us as well. so really just getting the pulse on, on our learners, what they want to hear, what they want to learn and how they want to learn and engage with that material is really important to us too.

So we're constantly learning from them and vice versa for the programming that we put out into the organization.

[00:14:20] Lisa: so how do you engage with your learners about how they want to learn?

[00:14:24] Christina: we have a lot of different modes to be able to engage in their respective input. So there's always on listening that we have available. So, you know, learners can submit ideas, they can submit feedback, they can give us you know, insights through many of the routes. Practices that we have to gather feedback.

We ask for feedback as we're embarking on a new product development or for creating or curating new resources. We actively seek out feedback from users to get their insights on prototypes to test and learn?

through proof of concepts and then integrate those insights into what we're able to actually.

So there's a lot of actively seeking out that feedback, but the always on routine really helps because you know, you're not just deliberately going out in a moment to get feedback, but in the spirit of when somebody is feeling something, thinking something or has an idea, the always on mode allows us to pull into that where they can just go. Download and share. And that insight is going to be waiting for us when we're ready to actually start looking at what our plans are for, you know, an upcoming fiscal year or for a particular initiative where they may actually influence our thinking on how we approach it. 

[00:15:27] Lisa: So I'm wondering if there's, if there's any example that comes to mind for you, where that user feedback that was solicited and came in, whatever the vehicle was, where it you and your team pause and created an opportunity to pivot.

[00:15:43] Christina: Yeah.

I would, I would I, I know a lot of all examples seem to kind of take us back to the pandemic and you know, the great pause of 2020, but. That was a fascinating time for, for us and, you know, the, the HR and talent management space, because there was such a great dependence on us and the need from our employee base for, for support.

And we were able to build a rapid response strategy based on feedback and insights we were getting from our learners. So, you know, we could have gone out you know, pushing content and resources that we thought were necessary for them. But instead. Pulled information that allowed us to adapt the modality with which we were delivering insights.

So consider as an example, one of the pieces of feedback that we had were asking for was, you know, how they wanted to receive information. And we might've been approaching things, you know, from like a one-hour webinar on a particular topic. They wanted quick quick reference tips, right? Things that they could self study checklists that would allow them to go through and consider how does. My home office environment how to ensure I create a culture of belonging with my colleagues, even though we might not be working face-to-face. So all of the insights that they were able to provide us, not only shifted the nature of the topics that we were focusing on, but also the modalities that we were optimizing and because everybody had the same needs at the same time, or at least very similar allowed us to really kind of like achieve impact on mass because it's very rare that you have an organization of our size.

You know exactly the same learning moment at exactly the same time. But there was so many people pivoting that we also got to learn, you know, almost like follow the globe in some ways, because, because of the nature of the pandemic, there were areas overseas or internationally in you know, Asia Pacific within Europe that were moving to remote set up and work environment before we were in North Korea. So those insights allowed us to influence again what we were going to be doing in north America based on the experiences that our employees were having globally. So just think that, that, that listening component, and again, just tapping into the, the user's needs help to shape us getting resources that were actually gonna get utilized, not sit on the shelf get positive feedback and get learners engaging the content. 

[00:17:51] Lisa: Yeah, it's really, it's interesting that the great pause, I liked how you called it, that and to see a massive organization experience something, you know, so monumental that everybody's got to pivot at the same time in some way, shape or form. So curious, what would you say when you think about, management, HR is supporting the growth and development.

millions of people, ultimately, right? on how big the organization is, you multiply that, you add us all up. What do you thinks been the biggest challenge your people needed help with throughout this last year and a half or so?

[00:18:27] Christina: So, I mean, I think adaptability and flexibility still. Plays a part there. Right? I think as humans we, there's a certain degree of certainty that we like to have in our environments, a certain degree of routine that, you know, helps us just sort of take out the guesswork and focus our time and attention on, on other things.

And that was just completely disrupted. so?

You know, looking at the wellbeing of our employees, focusing on supporting the, the mental health wellness and resilience of our employees was certainly top of mind and a top priority for us. But it was a conversation we were already having in the organization and.

The pandemic did do for us was take an important conversation and amplified it to being urgent. Later in 2020, you know, the focus around diversity and inclusion also went from an important conversation that we were already having to making it an urgent one that you know, was really, again, just sort of unified so many in their need at the same time that it created a great opportunity for us to to focus on. Having conversations on those topics. So, you know, this year, for sure the wellbeing of our employees was top of mind inclusion and belonging as a key focus area within our portfolio. Unlocking potential also still a key focus area because when you consider needing to navigate your career in a new context and environment you know, that that was something that deserved time and attention.

Change management continues to garner attention, and everyone seems to resist change management. And yet, you know, you don't need it until you're actually in it. And then this the symptoms that are all around you. Pinpointed for it, but change continues to be key focus for us. And then you know, this notion of, of hybrid working and, you know, as a global organization, we had been working you know, in a hybrid model, we've had employees who have fully remote and virtual, and we have employees who are co located.

But for those who were having to adapt you know, to their respective environments, they have needed some supports. And certainly our people managers have needed support as well because you've got. 87,000 unique needs that you're trying to cater to, right. And 87,000 unique experiences that employees may be having.

And as people managers really the they've got to lean in to make it using more of what makes them human connecting with employees kind of tapping into that need for empathy and compassion. And it's not, it's just something that you teach us or train people on, but it's something you help facilitate. 

[00:20:41] Lisa: yes. Yes. I mean, quite, the moment in history, what would you say is the, the best thing to come out of it that we will be able to take with us moving forward when it comes to leadership?

[00:20:53] Christina: I think there's so much that came out of the experiences as difficult and as trying as as it has been in so many ways. And, you know, when you grapple with the sense of, of loss you know, the impact to employees, to their families to 

our communities, There is point of connection and unity that emerged during the pandemic.

And, you know, I can just still remember, you know, the spirit of that moment in time. And as we were responding to those employee needs and, you know, getting that user feedback the core team that was working on this, you just felt so alive because you had a sense of purpose, right? That you were really in a mode of trying to serve your colleagues and, and support them in their time of need.

And I think that. Those those emotional connections and those bonds are you can't reverse. You can't turn it off once you turn it on and thank goodness, right? Like, I really hope that

you know, those emotional bonds and those connections that you know, people have built and that We've invited ourselves into each other's homes during all of this as well.

Right. You know, going through the pandemic. And I think that that has allowed us to learn a lot about each other as people relationships that we might've had existed deepened new relationships were forming in a moment of uncertainty and vulnerability. And so I hope that that, that unity.

Moment of connection continues. And I think that that's one of the best things that has happened to us. Right. It's like put down the device and talk to each other, right. 

[00:22:16] Lisa: Yeah, I agree. I think it's particularly early on, you know, I saw teams, entire teams, you know, leaders that I'd be working with one-on-one as a coach or, or when I was facilitating, about really trying to keep their finger on the pulse. Right. Doing regular check-ins sometimes daily, quick, know, five minute huddles in the morning as a way to connect.

And I do see. Now though, I'm not sure if it's like this where you are in a lot of organizations, people got a little bit fatigued 

right around this. Cause you have to be so intentional to ensure that you're reaching out to connect because you're no longer able to just run into somebody in an elevator in the hallway.

And so that can kind of wear you down a little bit and then create a sense of isolation. 

What have you noticed around that? Any kind of shift over time?

[00:23:04] Christina: I think you're absolutely right. I think that that, that has been the spirit, right. That's we have spent so much time?

on our devices and technology that come evening time when you're on your devices and technology to engage with people, it can be exhausting and draining. So I think we know we certainly have experienced that, but I think.

as a leader we have a role to play in helping our teams remember who they are. And remember that, that, that point of connection and to hold on to, you know, those, those great practices that we did adopt not, not to make it onerous you know, stripping, certainly being able to balance the commitments that people have between their home and lives, but Yeah.

I think it's it's again, your user experience will contribute to that, right?

Listen to what your employees are telling them. If they're feeling like they need break and it's getting to a point of fatigue, allow for that break to actually happen. But at the same time, don't forget about it, right? Because you do have to be, as you said, intentional in your approach on being able to engage, socialize, and connect with each other.

And it it's important. Like it's important to being able to just really solidify those relationships. Just as it is in your personal life too. So you've got to make sure that you're making those deliberate commitments to like it's we're beings, right? It's it's what we're wired to do. 

[00:24:15] Lisa: Yeah, and I think it's know, anything, any practice has a bit of a shelf life, you know, where I think it's incumbent on us to sort of say, okay, there's some fatigue, there's a drop-off in, in adoption around particular practice that people are using to fill a gap as we've done during COVID. Okay, so it's falling off.

So what does that mean? It's not the end of the world. It does require some attention. Right. And sort of thinking through, so what now, you know, asking 

question and being calm about it, not kind of panicking, what do we need now that we're at this juncture it's different than it was six months ago or whatever it was, 

[00:24:50] Christina: yeah, or, or what, else?

[00:24:52] Lisa: what, yeah.

[00:24:54] Christina: Yeah. And I think that accommodating, you know, different, different modes you know, you think about, you know, factors of, there may be employees who really miss being co-located in an office environment and there's employees who really love being fully virtual and remote.

And, you know, you've got to find a balance of being able to appeal to all of those respective needs. You've got to make, make space for those channels to really get engaged and to make sure people are, are you're meeting their unique needs. 

[00:25:20] Lisa: Yes, absolutely. Well, so let's shift our focus a little bit now. It's it's, it's, it's all connected though. So I'm curious as a senior leader in your organization you still are in a position to need to build buy-in and to influence the folks above you, the senior leadership team, right? For funding for resources.

For approval of the programs that you know will work. Right. So what are your best practices when it comes to building buy-in 

[00:25:50] Christina: this is a tricky one to answer because I, I work with a leadership team that pushes on innovation you know, creativity, curiosity, and, you know, we're just open to learning new things. But, you know, that said, I mean, there's definitely conversations where you've got to be able to bring to the forefront facts, right.

And sort of defer to fact-based decision-making to paint a picture. And so I generally say like, I don't view myself as owning anything. I am a facilitator of a process. A decision is not necessarily mine. My responsibility is to. Understand and tap into the needs and vision of our leaders, understand and tap into the needs and vision of our users and you know, try and find that balance so that you can, you know, we're in this little squishy middle of trying to paint a picture on, you know, what kind of information we're, we're hearing what our understanding is of the requirements and then providing options.

And sometimes the option. End up, you know, leading you naturally to a path because there's a balance of, you know, the feedback that you've gotten from your senior executive leaders and as well as employees and where it gets tricky is where there's a contrast. And then you've got to bring that data and those insights to, you know, Create a compelling story to help them understand why we may need to shift a little bit and what we had originally intended to do and the risks and implications if we don't do it.

But naturally just not being tied to the outcome, like just being open to Process, like I'm tied to the process, which is like making sure there's a balanced view. But not necessarily tied to the outcome. I think certainly you've got to make a recommendation. I do make a recommendation. I don't, I don't shy away from expressing my point of view or opinion.

But after the information, the facts and the insights have spoken for themselves. 

[00:27:31] Lisa: Hmm. Okay. So that's a very important piece of wisdom that you just shared, right? So it's really having the homework to, to really make sure everybody's on that led you to the recommendation, you know, any potential risks, other alternatives to create that openness so that there is choice 

involved. 

[00:27:51] Christina: totally like in a sense of being able to, that they've got influence over that choice, but it's an informed decision, right. And that doesn't mean that we don't, you know, make decisions based on like a gut feeling or what's happening in our tummy. Right. That we feel like our instincts are telling us to, to go in a different direction, but.

I will have fallen down as a talent leader if I haven't provided the full kind of gamut of information so that my executive leadership can in fact, make an informed decision so that they can feel, you know, sound injustice in, in their respective due diligence. And didn't have any gaps or, or, you know, misunderstandings in terms of what the requirements may have looked like.

So that's, that's what I see my role in, in doing is sort of just helping to facilitate the process. That's the. You know, having spent some time in, in the consulting world and, you know, really focusing on discovery and being able to like synthesize your understanding and you know, provide options that allow, you know, us to flex on whether it's budget, FTE priority.

It can really just help to, to guide where those decisions. 

[00:28:51] Lisa: Yeah, I would imagine that would, that would be extremely helpful for you in your current situation. Right. Having, bringing that experience. So you've got regular corporate and then the consulting where you're, where you're working with corporate partners and supporting them. 

mentioned something earlier and I'm fascinated by this concept up a lot in my work.

I'm doing talent management thought partner engagements with people this caught in the middle of this squishy. That we're in. Can you say that more about what you were referring to?

[00:29:21] Christina: Where you can. Really see the needs and interests or perspectives of your senior leaders, and you can see and feel the interests needs, and perspectives of your users. Right? And so you've got this, this gap that you need to close when they're in perfect alignment. The squishy middle is not so squishy, right.

When, when they are conflicting it gets a little, a little stickier and I think what, you know, we need to explore at that point are just, you know, sort of the risks and benefits of one perspective or another, and that's not to you know, tear down any insights or devalue any of those insights, but it is about just again, kind of be like a scientist, right.

And you can have a hypothesis about what might actually work. And sometimes you can, you know, In the squishy middle, take perspective on the risks of doing something. So maybe something is going to be, you know, low risk. So you can dip a toe in and decide whether or not it's something that you want to move forward with.

Or maybe something is going to be higher risk and, you know, require a lot more to implement, but you think the payoff is going to be significant, but, but that's where that decision is not really yours to make. Right. Your. Your role there is to facilitate that decision by bringing forward all of the information.

And again, just trying to influence the outcome by sharing those facts. But also just kind of talking through fast-forwarding on the implications of something. So you consider the implementation of it. You consider the parties that are going to be impacted or involved. So that, you know, you don't do anything in isolation.

It's, it's gotta be collaborative. You know, especially in the talent space it's got to be collaborative across the HR and the talent area, but it certainly has to?

be collaborative across your business. Because you've got to make sure that whatever you're implementing is going to get the results, but certainly not at an expense or cost to operational efficiency or effectiveness. 

[00:31:03] Lisa: Yeah, I'm picturing you being very facilitative throughout the whole thing. it's, you're helping people make the best, most informed decisions, right. Providing 

what they need in order to do that. So they, so it was a really a balanced perspective 

with as much information as you, as you can furnish.

and not be afraid of it too. I sort of that was this banner that went across my mind. As I heard you speak, you know, she can't be afraid. You're never going to 100% deliver everything that, you know, your internal customers want or that, you know, the senior leaders want to, that are driving towards the key results.

There's there's always compromise involved here.

[00:31:43] Christina: Yeah. And, you know, just you saying, like, not be afraid of it, you know, really struck me because I, I think you're right. I think it's, it's not be afraid either of not having all the answers. Right. Like, you don't need to have all of the answers. You need to discover the information to help inform what the answer the decision may be.

And I think that that, that can often trigger a threat response too sometimes. Right? If you feel like, well, this senior leaders are expecting us to know, or they are expecting us to get something done. And their role is to you know, help, help facilitate that, right. And, help facilitate that success. and, they've gotten to where they are as well, because they have great ideas and insights and, you know, may know things about the future direction or the business strategy that could, influence whatever the outcome is of what you're working on.

So you've got to have those conversations, not be afraid to paint a picture of the risks or to say this might not work because, and then, you know, having. Respective insight, but you can't just have one view on that. It's going to work or it's not going to work. Right. You have to objectively explore both.

So you have to stay as neutral as you can.

[00:32:48] Lisa: and neutrality is difficult in this line of work because, you know, first and foremost, I'm doing a group coaching program right now with a cohort. It's around, you know, personal support for them and getting very clear on what they want and deserve in their, career and their life right now.

And they're all. What they share is they're all talent leaders and every of them is so invested in serving right. In really supporting that growth, that development doing their absolute best. So there. Innately wired to want to serve. so when proposing solutions making recommendations really, hard and I relate to this certainly to not get really attached to a particular option.

And so going back to what you said earlier, not being as, as worried about the outcome, just making sure you're. I like to think of it as sort of like, as a visual, like your elbow. With whoever you're talking to, whether it's the folks you're trying to explore what their needs are, or the folks that are going to approve the money or the staff or whatever it is you need, 

you know, elbow to elbow with them.

How are we going to partner figure our way through this? Right. It's like picking up a bunch of cards, like, okay, so what does this tell us? 

[00:33:59] Christina: Yeah. Exactly right. 

[00:34:02] Lisa: Yeah. I mean, it makes it for a challenging field. Certainly it's also really rewarding, right? Because are, are so.

[00:34:11] Christina: It's it's hugely rewarding. I, again, just feel fortunate that early on in my career, I discovered, you know, where I wanted to focus, but, you know, when we you know, consider as a team that we have the

the great gift of being able to improve the working lives of our employees, to support them in unlocking their potential, expanding their capability, doing things that they never thought that they'd be able to do and love doing it.

That's pretty awesome. 

[00:34:36] Lisa: It is well, and that's, so funny because you just completely sounded like my writing, when I decided to do this podcast, right. I was thinking through like, what is the mission of this podcast? And it's to, to really inspire and help talent leaders share best practices that lift them up and them elevate.

You know, their existing influence already to impact the working lives of millions, 

a way to really multiply effect outside of their own organization. 

[00:35:04] Christina: Definitely definitely 

[00:35:06] Lisa: Well, before we wrap, I have one last question for you that we'll end 

[00:35:11] Christina: feel like this is going to be a hard one. is 

it. 

[00:35:13] Lisa: no, not too hard. I won't trip you up. I promise. When you think back to young, young Christina, at the beginning of your career, what is one piece of advice you would offer her now, knowing what you know.

[00:35:25] Christina: Good one. I, I guess I said it was fortunate early on in my career that I discovered what I loved doing and. Where I, I may have have gapped in, in that was, you know, not, not necessarily perhaps taking enough risks, right? So I think that there are things that you can get lost in what you love doing.

It may not necessarily feel like work. And you know, part of me wonders whether or not I should have taken a few more risks in my career to know, try different things or try new things. And that's part of what facilitated some changes for me in terms of the employers that. I worked for, because I felt like I was you know, maybe just stagnating a little bit and, you know, things were becoming very routine for me.

That's a sign that you need to disrupt things a little bit, right. And you need to change it up to be able to, to learn. And in the organization I'm in now, I've got that flexibility available to me where I actually can take you know, a few risks, like get into role you know, really look for opportunities.

The contribution, but then try something little bit different. So I think that's probably the one, one piece of advice I might give myself, which is to, to take a few more risks and not be afraid to do it. 

[00:36:32] Lisa: Yeah, because, you know, we I think you've taken some risks from, from what I know of you and what you shared. It's it's sometimes we hold back on those. Right. We, we know we probably need to disrupt and shake it up. And yet we stay stuck for a little bit and it's just, it's just a matter of time before we break past that log jam, 

[00:36:50] Christina: Yeah, Yeah, definitely. 

[00:36:52] Lisa: Interesting. Well, thank you so much for, for sharing that with us and sharing your thoughts on talent management and how you operate in your current role. It's a really, really useful and inspiring for the people listening. So I want to thank you very much for your time 

[00:37:07] Christina: No, it was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.