Taking a Learner- Centric Approach with Adrian Martin

“It’s not all about the content they are getting...but the whole experience that they live throughout that process as well.”

 - Adrian Martin

It can be tough to be strategic when it comes to learning programs.  Sometimes companies resort to flavour of the month, one-off programming that doesn’t really fit the organization’s true needs and values.  So how do we do strategy better and work in a more learner-centric way?   Listen to this episode for some thoughts around how a focus on the end result and the creative use of technology can assist the realization of a more strategic and learner-centric approach.  

My guest is Adrian Martin who is the Learning and Development Manager for IPEX Group of Companies, a leading company in thermoplastic piping systems.  In his role, Adrian leads the development and implementation of development programs that support business performance.   He has a particular interest in and skill at using technology to save time and streamline processes in his department so that there is more time to focus on strategy and good design.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

🍏  Things to consider when designing in a learner-centric way

🍏  The importance of stakeholder involvement when shifting from in-person to virtual learning

🍏  The connection between confidence and leveraging all the tools in your toolkit

About Adrian Martin:  Adrian Martin is a dynamic, passionate, versatile, and tech-savvy Learning & Development professional. With years of experience in various roles held across multiple industries, such as Telecommunications, Manufacturing and Retirement Living, he has explored many methodologies and concepts. One of his strongest beliefs is that the connection built with learners, and the experience provided to them, are two of the most important aspects of their learning journey.

Links

• Adrian Martin on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrian-martin-601ba786/ 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa: It can be tough to be strategic when it comes to learning programs, sometimes companies resort to flavor of the month one-off programming that doesn't really fit the organization's true needs and values. So how do we do strategy better and work in a more learner centric way? Listen to this episode for some thoughts around how a focus on the end result and the creative use of technology can assist the realization of a more strategic and learner centric approach.

My guest is Adrian Martin, who is the learning and development manager for IPX group of companies, a leading company in thermoplastic piping system. In his role, Adrian leads the development and implementation of programs that support business performance. He has a particular interest in and skill at using technology to save time and streamlined processes in his department so that there is more time to focus on strategy and good design.

I worked with Adrian many years ago and it's been a true pleasure to witness his genuine love for his work in helping others learn. And I know you'll enjoy hearing about it today. Thanks for that. Hello, and welcome back to talent management truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. And today I'm joined by Adrian Martin. Adrian is the learning and development manager at IPAX currently. And he and I go back in time. We've worked together previously and I can tell you that you're in for a treat. Adrian brings really, you know, very tech savvy approach.

He's worked in, in various industries in learning and development. He's a very innovative. Thinker when it comes to design and development he's right now very focused on, on building some new things in his new organization that he's recently joined. so with that, I'd like to welcome Adrian to the show.

Nice to see you.

[00:03:33] Adrian: Well, thanks Lisa, for having me,

[00:03:35] Lisa: My pleasure. My pleasure. Yeah. So, so it's great just to have a chance to catch up too, because you know, we've connected a few times over the past few years since we last worked together and it's been just a joy to see you continue to grow and share your gifts with so many people and, and really impact people's working lives in a positive way.

So when you think about. Going back to the beginning of your career. What inspired you? What attracted you to, to this field of talent management? So learning organizational development and so on.

[00:04:05] Adrian: So I remember back when I was about 22 years old, I started what I consider my real career at bell, Canada and telecom. I myself went through a training program starting in that company and just going through that entire process, I was quite inspired by the work that the facilitators were doing and the, you know, the whole show in front of the class and and just teaching skills to folks.

And even early on, when I started it, I knew that that was something that would interest me in terms of a growth opportunity. And I've always liked working with people. I've always liked being in front, you know, being in front and, and sharing knowledge with people, helping people learn new things. And I love talking you know, as a whole, so I figured it would be the perfect career for me you know, with all those things going on and all those aptitudes that I have naturally for being in front of the class and all that.

[00:04:54] Lisa: Yeah, because not everybody's comfortable with that. Right. You know, with, with that being in front some of us are in flow. Like that's literally, you know, a peak experience is, is facilitating, is seeing the light bulbs go off. It's for me, I know it's it's joyful.

[00:05:08] Adrian: Yeah. And building off the energy in front of a classroom, you know, you're with the participants, you feed off that energy and you build that experience with them. It's really ratifying really. And it's always something I really enjoyed at least for the facilitation portion of learning.

[00:05:23] Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's only one small piece of what's involved in and what you do. So tell us a little bit about what you're, you're responsible for it. I PAX what you're working.

[00:05:35] Adrian: So my main role consists of oversight of learning and development activities for the entire organization. So for now we're a small lean team in learning and development. So my main focus now is helping the organization source current. To fill gaps that we have currently so that we can get to the next level and we can sustain the growth that the company is looking for.

So one of the main focuses that I have right now is the implementation of leader leadership development programs. have that on the manufacturing side, in our. Distribution centers. And we also are doing something similar for our corporate audience as well. So it's a very you know, very exhilarating project so much at stake.

So it's really interesting to kind of learn about the organization at the same time and to work on all of those moving.

[00:06:22] Lisa: You know, you and I share experience in the seniors living industry. And we both know how, how challenging it can be to really ensure that we're delivering learning in. Bite-sized chunks that people can actually integrate into their day to day. You know, when you've got staff that are not sitting behind a computer all day, right. you Have to make it work for their schedule. So you're now in a company that has corporate and manufacturing and distribution. How do you, you know, make your offerings work in terms of delivery for the manufacturing?

[00:06:55] Adrian: So, I mean, I think one of the big things that we do is we put learners first. So part of the culture at AIPAC is putting the customer. And everything else kind of trickles down from that that vision and mission. So when we're looking at, you know, different vendors or or different content that we're going to be rolling out, we always think of it as a learner centric model.

So, so I'm, I personally always think of how it's going to be. Everything from scheduling to visuals to facilitation. So all the different aspects of the delivery of those programs, I, I'm always thinking about all those things early on in the process so that we can influence how it's gonna play out and in the selection of content or sourcing of content, it has to really reach those criteria. and it has to build an experience too. So I'm very big believers. Experience when someone goes into a training or learning session, it's not all about the content that they're getting out of it, but the, the whole experience that they lived throughout that process.

[00:07:56] Lisa: Yeah. That's I really appreciate your, your take on that. Cause I, cause I'll often say, you know, when I do facilitation is, is my job is to ensure you have the best possible learning experience today, you know? Cause it's, it's not just about filling people up with concepts, right. Or, or teaching or demonstrating new skills.

It's it's, it's so much more it's helping them. Possibility and find something they can attach to that they feel committed to trying out. Right. If you're looking for a change or shift in behavior after the fact.

[00:08:26] Adrian: Yeah, you have to inspire your audience to be the best of themselves. And the way that you design develop and deliver those programs has such an important impact on, on that specific element of being able to inspire them to be as good as they can be to support the business.

[00:08:46] Lisa: So when you think about your career, you've got, you know, over, over a decades worth of experience. So what's the talent initiative you're most proud of.

[00:08:54] Adrian: so it was tough to just think of just one, but I'd have to say that the, the one I'm the most proud of is more recently in the last few years. I during the pandemic, I became the responsible person for all of sales training in my previous organization.

So I really had the chance to bring something new to the table because traditionally I would only support one region of the country. And then suddenly overnight I was put into the prime ship role for the entire country. So working with the vice-president of a sell strategy we, it was such an awesome beer.

We had the chance. Implementing new tools to help the business sustain growth during the pandemic and to reduce, you know, loss and to reduce the impacts for the company. And building a lot of relationships with a lot of the sales directors in the organization. To me that was such an enriching. And it made me realize that you need to, you know, to kind of involve your stakeholders in the process when you're coming out with new tools or when you're redesigning a program. And that's exactly what we did because we had to transfer everything from face-to-face to virtual pretty much overnight.

And I still don't realize how I did it, but in three months we were able to convert an entire five day program into a six week virtual. By involving all those sales directors along the way, revamping and modernizing some of the content. and the result was tremendous. It was really well received. and a lot of the sales directors were very excited about some of the new tools that we were able to implement and just building those different relationships, was really meaningful.

[00:10:27] Lisa: Well I'm so I'm so thrilled for you because that is. a very substantial initiative, right? Cause it was over a long period of time and you were able to see the impacts. So Bravo, I mean, pivoting became, you know, the word of the moment over the pandemic, right. There was a lot of, a lot of pivoting And it was, it was tough. A lot of these things at the time. Right. Cause it was brought on by necessity and yet there's been some real gifts come out of it. Right. In terms of now you've, you know, they have this really incredible evolved program that they can use, right. That they can morph between in-person and virtual.

So fantastic. Congratulations on that. So, so if that's the one of the key initiatives that you're most proud of, you know, thinking about all of the people you've worked with. So who are some of the mentors that, that stand out for you along the way?

[00:11:17] Adrian: So I've, had a few leaders especially Early on in my learning and development career of, there were a few of my leaders who played a very important role. So I had one leader who was my leader when I was a facilitator at bell. So she really taught me the tricks of the trade for, for all I know about facilitation.

And I also, I reported to a gentleman whose name is Sydney goose, who also played a very important role in teaching me all those tricks of the trade. And from when I moved into a design role at bell Canada, I had a leader, caddying, Nicole. She was the one who really taught me how to thread through stakeholders, to manage stakeholders, to try to influence those people with the decisions that were, that they need to make, to implement some of our programs and to get through.

Because at first it wasn't an easy task when I transitioned to learning design and she really helped me with that whole process of getting the buy-in from stakeholders from sponsors. And she's the one who truly taught me how to write an effective performance assessment at the end of the year, because I would always struggle with that part of 

[00:12:24] Lisa: For yourself or,

[00:12:25] Adrian: yeah. For

myself as well. But that was such an important skill that could be used even to sell ideas is, you know, learning how to sell your ideas, learning how to talk about the impact, the results that will come from different initiatives.

[00:12:40] Lisa: How do you go about selling your ideas? What are the tips that you would offer?

[00:12:45] Adrian: So one of the things I do Lisa, is I try to be as exciting as possible and to share my excitement when I'm talking about an idea or a program that I'm trying to. So I find that in the way that you communicate the ideas, if you're feel really confident and you bring that excitement to the table, oftentimes your stakeholders also naturally feel that same excitement.

So that's really helped me along the way throughout my years in the different roles that I've held. And another thing I do too, is to try to anticipate questions and concerns that may come up and to come prepared with alternate. So you're sharing your plan for a certain initiative or program.

Well, it's good to think about different iterations of what that could look like while thinking of some of those concerns that may come up in the conversation. So I think it's all about building the connection and the relationship with those stakeholders helps you anticipate what some of those things are and makes things a lot easier when we're trying to get the.

[00:13:45] Lisa: Yeah, it's so important. really believe the secret to, to excellent communication to influencing building buy-in is really. Around intentionality, right. Taking the time to prepare to anticipate, as you said, you know, what are the concerns, right? What, what are people perhaps fearful of excited about? You know, if I think about it from their perspective, what do I need to consider and how can I, how can I embed that in, in what I want to tell them about what I want them to agree to as well?

Right? So it's, it's important because people want. Feel understood, feel that their needs are, part of whatever solution is being offered to them.

[00:14:28] Adrian: Yeah, absolutely. And it's all about timing. Everything to the end result. So how is that going to support the organization for the business outcomes? so you should be working backwards from that single element, right? So what's the sponsor or the business, or the stakeholder hoping to accomplish for a business outcome and your whole strategy and everything that you think about should really come from that from stem for that.

[00:14:52] Lisa: I agree. Yeah. It's working back, getting everybody to be on the same page, being able to articulate, visualize that final outcome and then say, okay, so knowing that we're in agreement, so how do we get there? Yeah, you're speaking my language. this is really and stuff. And I think though, you know, in our field that, that it can be tricky because, you know, I have to talk about the, the fact that. You know, it's a little tough, sometimes beat you're caught in the middle, right. And learning and development. All of these folks are relying on you and want development opportunities want more and more and more. Sometimes it can feel like, and. And growth opportunity. And yet you're not a revenue generator, right?

So it can be a little tough sometimes to make the case and get the funding, the support, the resources, the time the, you know, et cetera, to make things happen. So influence and building buy-in are that as one of the. Essential skills I think are needed. And the piece where we can get tripped up right in the moment where it's like, oh, you can feel like you're banging your head against a wall sometimes.

What would your advice be to somebody who's currently feeling like they're banging their head against a wall and they just can't seem to convince, you know, the powers that be the purse string holders, to invest in a particular program, you know, will work for them.

[00:16:08] Adrian: So, I mean, I guess the best advice for some of those tougher situations is to try to find ambassador. So before you present a plan or you present your, your program to those who hold the purse strings basically is you need to find influential ambassadors who are going to help you sell the idea. so that's something that I try to do as often as I can.

It's not always possible because you you know, depending on the structure or who those people are, you may not have access to some of those influential. But as soon as you're able to sell someone that has the purse string holders ear, it makes it so much easier afterwards to sell the idea. So I think it's, it's a good strategy.

It's a bit sneaky, some may say, but think it's an important aspect of, of being able to to get that buy in when it's a bit more.

[00:16:56] Lisa: Well sneaky. I don't know. I think you can be pretty upfront around that, around trying to find, you know, allies, people that, that do see the value and kind of create some grassroots excitement around something that can help convince people that, you know, would otherwise be a little more tough minded for instance, you know, not, not as quick to say yes.

And I think. Stakeholders like that are doing us a favor. Right? Cause they're, they're helping us get ultra clear on what's the, so what, like, what is that outcome? Why should I care? I think it can be, it can be helpful sometimes to go back to the drawing board and really be, you know, figure out what do I need to create, to provide, to help this person say yes.

Cause, cause there's this intuitive knowing when you're of service, you're sort of service oriented as you. As most people in talent are, right. They're very people oriented. They want to help. They want to support, they want to lift up. So sometimes in our excitement, we, we there's this internal knowing we know something will be helpful.

it's taking that and really turning it into something that's that's clear.

[00:17:59] Adrian: Yeah.

[00:18:00] Lisa: Here's what the shift will be. Here's what the benefit is.

[00:18:02] Adrian: And sometimes with some of the more difficult stakeholders, it gives you that healthy dose of, you know, coming back to reality sometimes because in some of that excitement, sometimes we forget to think of. Some of the fundamentals that are important to that stakeholder. So by them just maybe being a bit more difficult, it actually gives us what we're missing, the missing piece of the puzzle to make the project more successful.

Because if it was really easy, every single time we'd be doing something wrong, it would mean that maybe we're not doing our homework. Right. So, it's important to have that dialogue and to and to sometimes get a challenge, right. And to, to beat.

[00:18:38] Lisa: Well, I was in was doing a group group coaching program session this weekend. And one of the things we were talking about was, you know, what's the silver line. In difficulty in things that are challenging and, you know, we've all had that prickly person, you know, that we may have had to deal with, right.

Where w may have felt intimidated or felt like they were maybe being unreasonable. And yet, oftentimes those are the people that, push us and grow us. We just don't notice it necessarily in the moment. So it can be helpful though, over time to when you encounter those kinds of situations to, to sort of say to yourself, well, what am I meant to be.

From this person or that, or this, this event right now. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:19] Adrian: Absolutely.

[00:19:20] Lisa: we could go on and on about that, like there's, it's so, so interesting. So when you think about, your career and the different things you've done, and you've been in the different, different industries, different roles and had all these wonderful mentors, what do you thinks had the biggest impact on your confidence as a talent leader?

[00:19:38] Adrian: I think it's having had the chance to work in all facets of learning and development. So I've done facilitation, I've done needs assessment. I've done design development. I've worked. Different mediums in class micro learning. E-learning you name it?

I've utilized so many different technologies and try to incorporate that in what I do as well.

So, I mean, just building your tool kit, I think as talent manager or talent professional, the more tools that you have in that tool kit, that's what really helps boost that current. And for all those who are listening, when you start noticing just how many tools you have and you know exactly which ones to pull out of the tool kit you'll be surprised too, just how much success you can go and get with all those tools.

And, and that's what helped me build my confidence. And then after that, the sky was really the limit then I feel like there's no stopping me. I mean, nobody's perfect. I really feel like I've grown a lot in the last 12 or 13 years, just so in all those roles and gathering those skills and tools that I've added to my belt.

[00:20:40] Lisa: What, what are you looking forward to to learning next in your journey? What's, what's kind of the next exciting thing that you want to put in that toolkit.

[00:20:49] Adrian: So I think, well, the people management aspect, people leadership. He's quite new to me in this new role that I've started recently. and that's where I wanted to go. It's really

the waters I want to swim in right now. So now that I've kind of, added so many tools to my tool belt from, from being an individual contributor. Learning the tricks of the trade from people. Leadership has been to help me, you know, acquire even more skills and to become an even more strategic learning and development professional. and hopefully, I mean, one day continue growing and having even more influence for, for the organization.

[00:21:22] Lisa: so when you think about you know, stepping into this people leader role, what, what do you think is most important for talent management leaders who lead teams to keep in mind? When it comes to motivating and guiding their, their team.

[00:21:39] Adrian: So I think it the most important thing is getting to know your team and realizing that there's no cookie cutter approach to. Everybody's different. Everyone has different work styles, personality styles and getting to know your team will teach you exactly how you need to flex to, to modify your leadership style, to give them what they need at that moment, because you may have someone who's very much engaged, very committed.

But if your style is micro-managing them, well, you're not probably not going to get very far in your approach to that person and continuing to build on the engagement. And the same thing is true for someone who needs a little bit more support, you need to be able to show the, observe that and to, to flex appropriately, to support them so that they can reach the goals and, and feel valued in the organization.

[00:22:29] Lisa: Yes. The valued piece is really, really critical. Right. it can be tricky sometimes when, you know, the world's going really fast right now. I find in, in companies, you know, a lot of my clients they're feeling like, oh, so it's breathless, right? Like they can barely keep up. There's just so much. Going on so many deadlines, there's just, it's, it's a bit, it's a bit nutty.

So what, when, you know, when you think about having been, more on the individual contributor side, what's been helpful for you, you know, if you sort of go back to that perspective in, helping you navigate those really crazy times, I'm just thinking for all of us as leaders, it's like a chance to reflect on, you know, how we can help.

[00:23:08] Adrian: So, so I think having had the chance to work for different leaders, I mean, I could think of maybe eight or 10 different leaders I've worked for over the years. So you, you kind of get to know the different styles just by naturally working with those leaders. So that is taught me a great deal about what is preferable.

What's a best practice and what's a no-no myself having gone through that process. But also just like staying afloat. I think the more that we can use technology to help us and our ability to make learning scalable will actually ultimately help us hit more big rocks. So, so, you know, using my tech savviness to come up with solutions to save time, whether it means saving time, planning, saving time in design and development, and, you know, building templates, you name it, doing those things. We'll give you some of that time back so that you can actually focus on, you know, the reflection of your strategy. And it feels like you can breathe a little bit more easily when you're able to do most things, but I'm a curious person by nature. you need to have that curiosity to kind of be a self-starter and to learn technology

because Technology in this day and age is really our best friend. And not all the organizations may feel the same way about technical. So you have to be able to show them that it could be useful, that it, that there's savings involved and using that as a learning and development professional, you're getting some of that valuable time back for sure, because we can automate, 

[00:24:33] Lisa: Well, yeah, the automation and some of the efficiencies. So, so what are the most, you know, important automations or technology tricks? You've, you've come to love over the years for learning professionals.

[00:24:45] Adrian: So I think that from a communication perspective to be able to automate emails so I mean, Microsoft has some great features like power automate, which allow us to set up all kinds of automations approval flows, automatic emails being sent out and combined with SharePoint, SharePoint for office 365, you can practically do. Everybody to sign up to all your events without you having to do anything except set up those events, for example. So that's one of the big things that I've been working on recently, is for my employee to be able to utilize that kind of technology so that she can focus on other things instead of just being in front of the email all day and, and reading emails and sending emails back and. So that's just one example. but I mean, using you know, offering tools like articulate storyline to its fullest, to be able to, you know, build templates to save time when it's time for the redevelopment aspect of the cycle of learning that will ultimately save time and give you more time to focus on things like storyboarding and actually thinking of what what the design looks like from an instructional design perspective.

[00:25:51] Lisa: Yeah. So it's, it's kind of putting systems in place so that you can focus on the creative part, focus more of your

time on where where it counts is what I'm hearing.

[00:26:01] Adrian: Absolutely.

[00:26:02] Lisa: Yeah. And it's, it's interesting. I've never heard of the, like the automations with the SharePoint to, you know, it sounds like you use it for enrollments because, because a lot of companies have different LMSs, right.

That are specifically for that. So that's, that's an really interesting other way to get at it. Right. Using share. I never heard of that. That's that's fast.

[00:26:22] Adrian: It's SharePoint is such a great communications tool. When I started working with SharePoint just over about two years ago, I really fell in love with. And I'm a visual person and I really feel that the more beautiful something visual can be when you're communicating, going to catch your audience's eye, and will add to the value.

And we'll, we'll help create some of that excitement, but also it helps you simplify how you communicate the information because let's face it. People hate reading emails. They, they hate going through walls of texts. So using more visuals to get points. And integrating different information into that mix is very important for, for getting people to actually get the information they need to, to be successful, to get the best out of

[00:27:08] Lisa: Well, yeah, because you're streamlining their experience. So, so making it pleasant. Right. And then that helps them be more open to what you're actually providing to them. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. so let's shift just into, you know, I'm curious, to know when you look at the talent management landscape, And I know you're out of Quebec, so it could be, you know, if, if you see any particular trends there or you've also worked serving across the country, what do you see as the biggest opportunities for how talent management leaders can impact their organizations?

Right now?

[00:27:42] Adrian: So why? I mean, in, I'd say, recent organizations I've worked for, making sure that you offer a consistent experience across the board has been an opportunity. So being able to offer the exact same offering in French as an English is so, so important. I've seen so many situations where the product that we're delivering to audiences and Quebec is, is completely different.

So trying to streamline that I think is very important, but another challenge, I think. You know, trying to curtail the you know, the, the lack of employees, you know, it's hard to attract talent to the organization. So I think that's a really big challenge with with shortages of employees, especially during the pandemic.

We've seen that in a lot of companies as well. So finding ways to retain that talent, I think is one of the biggest key points going into the next few years, for sure.

[00:28:36] Lisa: Well, yeah, so it's a challenge, but it is also an opportunity. I agree, like ways to retain key talent and protect the investment that you make in them from a, from a growth perspective. I think companies are starting to come at that differently. You know, you talked about apex being very learner centric.

I would think that's kind of central to their, to their strategy.

[00:28:56] Adrian: Yeah. And it was actually quite refreshing joining the organization to see the emphasis being put on learning and development. because as you mentioned earlier, least, so, you know, learning and development is often seen as a cost of. And I've heard that, I guess I can see it a zillion times in my career in the last 13 or so years. So it was really refreshing, the last few months to, to, you know, being able to witness an organization, putting so much value on learning and development. And, just the fact that I joined the team, is part of that whole strategy as well. So, We're growing the team so that we can reach more of our audience to give them the skills and the development that they need to help the organization succeed.

For sure. So, so that would be one of the best opportunities is to, to try to instill that, you know, learner centric approach or vision, a lot of companies should do that. For sure. I would certainly record.

[00:29:47] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Thank you. Well, so let's, let's shift gears and, and I'd like to offer you a question to wrap us up, which is, you know, When you consider all of your different experiences and everything that you've developed, what would you say is the biggest lesson you've learned in our field?

[00:30:07] Adrian: The biggest lesson I've learned is to try things, to not be afraid to put yourself out there to expose your. Your ideas as a learning and development professional one thing I've learned is that you, you just cannot afford to be a yes person. You have to be able to put yourself out there and to be bold. And I don't think that I would be where I am today if I hadn't utilized some boldness throughout my career. but you have to be careful. Obviously you always have to be respectful and position things the right way. but you know, just not being afraid, having no. And just trying different things.

I think that's one of the biggest lessons I've learned over my career.

[00:30:46] Lisa: Or the fear and doing it anyway. Right. You know, cause there, cause there is trepidation sometimes with trying on new things or, You know, putting yourself out there so to speak, especially when you're not the expert yet. Right. And so, so you're learning as you go. So yeah, I think that that boldness is key.

And, and I appreciate what you said here about you can't afford to be a yes person when you're in learning and development, because I think that, this discipline, this area. it attracts so many service oriented people that would describe this as I'm a people person, you know, I really enjoy people and that's wonderful.

I also think it can mean that we get, we get stuck sometimes in wanting to please. And this is a theme. I, I hear a lot when I'm working with my consulting clients, you know, like you wanting to please. The gratification of people seeing the value of what you offer. And sometimes it doesn't feel intuitive, but what needs to happen is to be bold and to, you know, not always be the yes person.

Right. Really persevere in sticking by your idea and why it's the right thing to do in a respectful way. Granted.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's really been such a pleasure to, to hear your, your viewpoints on, talent and learning, and what's important. And I just want to wish you all the best in your role.

I think I pecs made a good hire, but I'm biased.

[00:32:08] Adrian: Well, certainly thanks for having me, Lisa, I'm very happy that you decided to invite me and to give me the opportunity to share with with so many other learning and development or talent management professionals out there. So hopefully, for those watching that you picked up a few tidbits, but it was my pleasure to be here.

[00:32:25] Lisa: Thank you so much.