Creating Psychological Safety with Jennifer Hall

 “You have to budget your time for the important things.”

 - Jennifer Hall

Our work lives are busy.   Jammed with meetings and to-do lists, and it can seem like there’s simply no space to do anything particularly well.  And what are the implications for our relationships at work when we are this busy?  How can we build and sustain trust?   I invite you to listen to this episode for insights that will get you thinking about your big rocks!

My guest is Jennifer Hall who is Director of Human Resources for ACCES Employment, a charitable agency that assists job seekers from diverse backgrounds, who are facing barriers to employment, to integrate into the Canadian job market.  In her role, Jennifer is responsible for the full gamut of HR services, including DEI, recruitment, succession planning and L&D.  She believes that a healthy organization with effective and welcoming onboarding, strong L&D and engaging leadership has a tremendous impact on our lives at work.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

🍏  Why being “generous with your time” is essential

🍏  What creating psychological safety in an organization actually looks like in action

🍏  Ways to build trust with your internal customers so that you can build buy-in for the programs you know will work

About Jennifer Hall: Jennifer brings 20 years’ experience in human resources and has a wide array of experience working in various industries and sectors, including employment services, financial services, event technology, consumer packaged goods, and both union/non-unionized, for-profit and non-profit sectors.  She leads the HR function at ACCES Employment and is currently building out the learning and development strategy for the organization.  Prior to that, she was in a scaling M&A environment in event technology and led the creation of all HR programs for newly merged companies. Jen has a full life to juggle with hybrid work, balancing family including kids at different ages and stages, and a cat and a dog joining her virtual calls from time to time.

Links

• Book recommendation (out of print but you can find used copies):   FYI: For Your Improvement, A Guide for Development and Coaching (4th Edition) For Leaders, Mentors, and Feedback by Michael M. Lombardo
• Jennifer Hall on Linkedin:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrjenniferhall/ 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa: Welcome back to talent management truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. And today my guest is Jennifer Hall. Our work lives are busy, jammed with meetings and to do lists and it can seem like there's simply no space to do anything particularly well. And what are the implications for our relationships at work?

When we are this busy, how can we build and sustain trust, invite you to listen to this episode for insights that will get you thinking about your big rock. Jennifer is director of human resources for access employment, a charitable agency that assist job seekers from diverse backgrounds who are facing barriers to employment to integrate into the Canadian job market.

In her role, Jennifer is responsible for the full gamut of HR services, including DEI recruitment, succession planning, and L and D. She believes that a healthy organization with effective and welcoming onboarding, strong learning and development and engaging leadership has a tremendous impact on our lives.

And I would agree, Jen and I first met many years ago on a course together, and I've enjoyed watching her learn and grow over time into the highly accomplished and professional HR leader. She is today. She brings out really calm and clear eyed perspective to her work. And I know you will benefit from hearing her thoughts on cultivating trust and building buy-in.

Thanks for listening.

Hello, and welcome back to talent management truths. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. And today I'm joined by Jennifer Hall. Jennifer and I go back probably about 20 years. I think Jen, and earlier in our careers to say that. And she is currently at access employment where she leads the HR function there.

And she brings a really interesting mix of experience in different industries, working with non-profit profit unionized. Non-unionized so really, really interesting mix and, many perspectives over her long career. So I'm really delighted to have her here. Welcome to the show. 

[00:03:47] Jennifer: thank you so much for having me, Lisa. 

[00:03:49] Lisa: My pleasure. So could you maybe just tell us briefly about what exactly you do at access you and your team?

[00:03:56] Jennifer: Okay, absolutely. My team and I lead the entire HR function. We do all of the different programs. of course, all of the bread and butter things such as recruitment and payroll and compensation. We are starting to implement a pretty robust learning and development program for our different levels of staff.

We want to introduce some credentialing launched a recognition program recently and some new enhancements to benefit. So there it's the whole realm of HR. 

[00:04:26] Lisa: You have the whole enchilada? 

exactly. 

Okay. Okay. So lots in front of you. So you and I met on a course way, way back a five day course. I heard that. And we connected immediately, 

Yes. 

was around talent acquisition and, and selection practices. And I found that was so useful. So we both kind of have that in common that, fit the fact that talent acquisition has been part of what we do for, for off and on for over the years.

So when you think about, you know, moving into the world of HR, what attracted you to it in the first place?

[00:04:59] Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. HR was something that I thought was a natural fit for my personality. Just how I like to relate with people that focus in the business world was important to me. Going into human resources. I found I started in recruitment and I found that I had a real love for solving business problems. because I have worked for so long, I started working when I was 14 and I've been working since then. I have always loved working and I have always, you know, watched my leaders and I've had some, you know, really great examples and some pretty terrible examples throughout my history of work. My passion is really creating a healthy, like a psychologically safe environment for S for employees to thrive in removing barriers and obstacles. And really just when I can see that, you know, we moved from an unhealthy situation to positive and nurturing one that gives me a real kick, you know, that's what I'm really excited about in my career. 

[00:05:56] Lisa: Well, and it's interesting cause you know, talent, HR professionals, we're kind of caught and I'm always saying this kind of caught in the middle, right? Because you don't have full control over how people behave. You can only help support them, you know, and point them towards the behaviors. Right. That would lead to the impacts that we want.

So when you talk about psychological safety, how do you go about creating that? How do you know it's working.

[00:06:21] Jennifer: interesting question. And I don't have full realm of expertise here, but in my experience, what works well is to have the right expectations for. You know, having clear expectations and boundaries believing in and trusting people to do the right thing. and I really believe in investing time, being very generous with time and feedback. Right to, to help steering people in the right direction, coaching them. If they're, you know, not understanding something and expecting that they can learn and navigate to, you know, improve if there's ever an issue. And I found that that trust and belief in people works very, very well. People obviously gravitate toward positivity And when things are not to be open and honest with people, and I feel like having a good solid foundation in a relationship helps you, right? So if you demonstrate caring and a commitment to people and that time and investment in them, they will respond well when you give them feedback because they know it comes from a caring place.

So I found that that always works well. 

[00:07:28] Lisa: Yes, I really appreciate how you kind of frame psychological safety, that, that, you know, the clear expectations, boundaries, and then the believing and entrusting in people so critical because people feel it right. they know if you're expecting them to fall down, they know if you're frustrated that they're not getting it right off.

So that generosity of time I haven't heard that particular phrase to be generous with your time. I think that's really compelling. Now, how does that show up for you? Like when you say that, I'm just curious, I'm just sort of thinking through it. are you generous with your time? Do you mean with your team or with your clients or, or, or how does that show up at accent?

[00:08:06] Jennifer: Yeah that shows up with my team and with business partners that I partner with. I try to be generous with my time and my investment in them because I find that, you know, starting off in a relationship, if you really listen to other people's pain and come up with a solution that cements your relationship with them, right.

And that's always been my approach. It works really, really well. And I can't say I've come up with it. I've seen different leaders demonstrate that. And I emulate what I like. Right. I've seen other people do it. And I said, oh, that's the kind of leader that I want to be. And I grabbed that piece and I just use it right.

[00:08:41] Lisa: Yeah, intentional approach. Right. You know, like being very aware of what feels right for me on the, you know, as an employee on the receiving end of different styles of leadership and then choosing what style you want to step into. So on that note, actually, I'm really curious. Who's mentored you along the way.

[00:09:00] Jennifer: I've been very lucky. As I said, I've worked for a long time for it for a number 

of different people and some fabulous leaders. Right now I work for Yarra diamond C no, she's the COO at access employment. She just gives me a lot of opportunity to own different programs. And, 

a lot of opportunity to.

Be in front of senior leadership and set up a table and, you know, have influential discussions with people. and she is generous with her time with me and Let's me kind of have some rope to, to run things on my own, but she'll also spend the time with me to say, oh, you know what?

I think here, this approach would work better because she has got a longer relationship with people. She knows what's going to work and what hasn't worked based on her past experience. So she guides me that way.

and I would say, you know, my past leaders as well, and bill brown at FMV was a phenomenal mentor.

He was the presidency CEO he is actually

a business coach and a consultant as well, so fabulous mentor. And he recruited me away from my prior company and I, I was in a management capacity now, suddenly I was the director of human resources and they didn't have HR. So it was a Greenfield.

And I was now implementing programs, the whole HR realm and trying 

[00:10:19] Lisa: He were building from scratch.

[00:10:20] Jennifer: And trying to transform a number of small owner operator companies that had come together through a private equity purchase and really position it for a sale and making it you know, Trent transforming, the landscape of that organization, which was a very big patchwork of very different companies.

It was a mess. It was a very big problem, a challenge and bill. Spent a lot of time with me and I, that whole investment in generosity of time, I learned from him and trusted me and steered me to success. And it was a wonderful boost for my confidence. And I was at the executive table, little old me sitting there 

driving programs, and I could do it.

It was an amazing opportunity for 

me. 

[00:11:05] Lisa: saw that in you. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very important. I've had a couple mentors like that too in my life where they saw something in me before I stop myself. 

it is transformation. 

Yeah, so lucky to have had that. So I love the FMA V example of just, you know, having to build from scratch and being, you know, it can look very daunting and here he's really truly investing in you through action through spending that time.

Not all leaders are going to do that. Right. Cause they're so busy themselves. So I kind of wonder like, You know, I think if I were a listener right now, a lot of folks in, in companies and organizations are in meetings, meetings, meetings, and they feel like they can barely catch their breath.

So they might be thinking, oh my God, how do I give any more time to my people? I like the concept of being generous with my time and investing, but geez, like there's only so much, so many hours in the day. Do you have any advice for them or, you know, if, whether it's mindset or, or tactical.

[00:11:58] Jennifer: I would say that for bill, it was his priority was the relationship piece. He really got energized from that. It was important for him. So he put his time there and you know, I wouldn't say that That we had the full, you know, work-life balance. It was not nine to five, you know, we 

did spend time during the day.

And then, you know, we did go into the night, unfortunately and, and put some hours in there as well to build what we were building. You know, I think it becomes a rhythm you know, that whole concept you know, Stephen Covey of, 

The, big stones and filling in the sand around it.

So you have. Budget your time for important things and you know, everything else will fill in from there. So if you do, you know, keep some, some time in your calendar and you, you get used to budgeting your time. That way. I think it will flow.

[00:12:47] Lisa: I think that is a very simple and. Rational answer. Right? You, you, you have to budget your time for the important things, because, you know, I think we know that intellectually and yet it's that follow through of actually baking that in and being consistent in discipline around it, about paying attention to the big rocks, to your big priorities.

So, yeah, but if you decide it's worth it, you're going to do it. You know, when I'm working with people around productivity or time management, I just don't have time. Where do I put one more thing in, and I'll say you have. I like what? I'm like, you have very nice teeth. Do you, do you push them every morning?

Oh yes I do. Okay. So you make time for that. Like, it's become a priority, like, but now it's a habit. You don't even see it that way. 

[00:13:30] Jennifer: Exactly. 

[00:13:31] Lisa: So, you know, what's, what's the shift needed here and I'm not saying it's easy. I'm always a work in progress too, but it is fascinating. This, this idea here. All right, so let's move on to.

Another another question. Cause I'm really curious about, you know, since you've got a team and you're working through them to get the work done, I mean, certainly you've got your own projects and so on. How do you inspire them to want to provide best in class programs and support for the organization?

[00:13:59] Jennifer: That's a very good question. I would say that there, there are many different aspects to how they're inspired to, to do their best. And I think part of it is the positive feedback and accolades that they get. Once they've implemented something, that's driven an improvement in the business They get really jazzed up about the feedback, right?

So everybody wants praise and recognition and acknowledgement. So I think creating opportunities for them to get praise and recognition for their work is part of it. The other part is I'm very hands-on and I can't sit back and just delegate and I take on many projects myself and I, 

you know, A lot of tremendous satisfaction out of making driving improvements.

And they see me working hard, they see me you know, getting involved in things, not just expecting them to do, some gritty work, but I'll do gritty work they see that, you know, they see how hard I'm working and I think it also inspires. To do the same, you know, it's not beneath me, you know, I don't just delegate and say, you, you're more junior to me than you do this, and 

I'm going to do this work instead.

it's all like that. And when things are really busy and, you know, just overwhelming. I jump in and say, you know, do you want me to take this recruiter? I can take this one off your plate they say, really I'm like, sure, no problem. You know, it keeps me fresh and in touch with things that otherwise I'd be more dissociated from.

And that's a good opportunity for me. and I get that buy-in and commitment from my team. And I think that

gets them to want to do the same. 

[00:15:41] Lisa: Well, it kind of, connects back to what you were saying at the beginning about really creating psychological safety through, through believing and trusting in your employees. But you're, you're giving them reason to believe in trust in you, by modeling away is what I'm hearing, what I'm picturing.

[00:15:56] Jennifer: I think so. 

[00:15:57] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, what would you say has had the biggest impact on your confidence as a talent and HR leader 

[00:16:07] Jennifer: Sure. I think, you know, initially, you know, you go to school and you have all these ideas and you want to implement them. I, you go into the work world and sometimes you get pushed back and think, okay, I'm supposed to be doing all of these things and the business isn't letting me, I think not having an agenda.

Necessarily, but listening to the business needs, planning and being ready for the things that you want to be driving in the organization is important. When you have that opportunity. Now, when you, when you realize that there's a pain point and you have an opportunity to introduce something, that's your foot in the door now to.

Do more. Right. So for example you know, working in environments where, you know, you don't feel like you have a seat at the table, you don't have a voice. And you're partnering with maybe a manager who has a problem employee. Well, you, I, what I do is I have the org chart talked to. Business leader.

When I'm sitting at the table with them, I say, you know, what's going on in your team. Who's doing really well. Who do we need to invest more development in? who are your, the problem kids? You know, we talk about the problem kids, and then we brainstorm solutions to address things. And sometimes, you know, I've found out that I've walked into a toxic embark.

Where there's employees who will shout at supervisors or do demeaning things to their team members and things like that. You know, those things still happen in the workplace nowadays sometimes like I get floored by how unprofessional some people can be and talking to an equipping leaders to deal with those problems.

You know, suddenly they've, you know, either improved or they have, you know, enough done that they can move on with that problem and address it in a more severe way, eliminate the problem perhaps, perhaps and suddenly, you know, that surgeon morale and productivity after something like that's happened is really good reinforcement suddenly.

They want you there and they talk about what you've done and you're doing that for another person and another person suddenly you're doing a talent review and succession planning for the organization at the leadership 

table. You know, it's opening those doors, having a little bit of patience, working with the business on what their priorities are, you know, you know what.

As a pressing challenge, you know? Okay. Right now they don't have time for that, but here's where the LOL is. Okay. So I remember last year there was a law this year. There's a law there too. This is what I'm going to go forward with this program. And suddenly it's all working, working out. 

[00:18:36] Lisa: Yeah, it's kinda like the, the, you know, the phrase, read your audience when you're presenting. We were talking earlier, before we press record about the two of us have had experienced, you know, on big stages with the lights and the teleprompter and stuff, but it's, it's, it's kind of like, Like this idea of checking out what are the cues from my audience, right.

When is going to be the optimal time to introduce something new or, or, you know, new ideas and bring that forward so that it will be well received. And I'm also hearing, I think this I'm picturing you really trusting the process, right. Being patient. The time will come. you said something interesting.

You said not having an agenda when I asked you about confidence. So can you say a bit more about what you mean there?

[00:19:16] Jennifer: Sure. I think people can feel if you're just pushing an agenda and you're not really attuned to the business and their needs right now. I've had feedback and this is really nice to hear. I've had, Somebody who I reported to tell me you're not like other HR people and I'm like, okay, what does that mean?

And they said, well, you seem to really understand. The business needs are, and not everybody does that. And I think that what they meant was I'm not pushing an agenda of, you know, these are the 10 best practices of human resources and, and therefore we are doing this in the organization trying to respond to, okay, this is your pain point right now.

I have a solution for that. And people respond to that. Right. So I think Really learning about the business and responding to what you know is going on there at the right time and working with them on their, on their bandwidth. What's what's feasible for the organization is a way to 

get more influence and opportunity to drive more of the programs that you want to drive. 

[00:20:19] Lisa: So, 

Yeah. So it's not that you don't have an agenda. I don't mean it in the evil Dr. Evil 

but, but, but, we do, I mean, I mean, that's part of we're supposed to do in organizations, right? As, as talent as HR leaders is, is to ensure that. We're supporting through best practices and, you know, progressive view of how to develop people and support them over time.

Right. For, for business results. So, so there's nothing to be ashamed of. You know, like when I used to teach sales, I'd say, there's, there's no shame in the fact you're trying to earn a living. Like that's like, you're like, 

absolutely. 

thing. Right. 

No. 

that's how kind of things work. So here, yes. You do need to sell some of your programs, ultimately.

Because you know, they're the right thing to do, but what I hear is you're being really cognizant of how you introduce the concepts, how you. Make sure it fits with, the business's reality. I mean, that's truly partnering 

Exactly 

in action. Yeah. Yeah. Demonstrating that you get it, that you're, you're invested in knowing more and then you're gently putting forward some of these ideas when the time is right.

[00:21:27] Jennifer: Yeah.

I think it's also just knowing when to fight the battle. Right. 

And, having a little bit of patience to, you know, not drive everything at once. Right. So what are the priorities? Right. And, and, you know, all the things that you want to do, the leading practices that you want to implement.

For example, you know, what access, we didn't have a recognition program for awhile. There was an old one before I joined. Died down. 

And there had been

Nothing for awhile. but there were very burning priorities, you know, like we had to update certain policies. We had a pandemic, all of a sudden that we had 

to respond to, you know, and I did actually wait for a while because one of my priorities was to develop a recognition program.

We did develop the recognition program, but it wasn't, you know, pushed for as the first priority, but it was an important priority. And it's just having that timing. Right. and knowing what the bandwidth is and what the priorities are. And I, what my focus is, is not forcing something because I want to do it.

But knowing what, what would be the appropriate time based on just a partnership and a relationship with understanding the business. 

[00:22:30] Lisa: Yeah. And what's your thought about, about language? Because it's easy to talk in. Best practice C academics or theory you know, HR, talent management, you know, the best practice. I think a lot of business leaders just sort of go, oh, like they cross their eyes. They're just like, whoa. Like, do we have, it's an overused term, for instance.

So, 

You know, when I work with people, not in my coaching, kind of with my coaching hat, but when I'm doing thought partner work, with talent leaders, that's something that comes up a lot, right. Is, is, is, you know, key part of the work is how to communicate, right? So it's choosing your time. Choosing where it makes sense to introduce something.

Also conveying the idea and painting the opportunity in, in language that's straightforward and not kind of, it's fine to speak amongst ourselves using some of that lingo. When we're working with others, they don't care. They just want their, they want the, the, the opportunity addressed or the problem solved.

[00:23:27] Jennifer: Yeah.

I've been hearing a lot about that. And when I joined HR, I was very cognizant of how people communicate it. And I tried very hard to learn, to emulate the right kind of language. And then as time went on, I became very good at corporate speak. Then I joined. Right. I joined FMA V and it was an environment that was very entrepreneurial, 

very real, very human.

And there was a real feedback to me saying, you know, just lose the corporate speak, talk real, you know, speak to me like a human 

being. 

[00:24:07] Lisa: to say talk dirty. No.

[00:24:10] Jennifer: No, no, no, we didn't go there. I really learned to cut the jargon and just speak to people like human beings 

and just speak regular language that everybody would understand. and I think that there was a big appetite for that right now. I 

think. And people are moving away from corporate speak and just being real.

the concepts are there there's theory behind it. You know, like we're reading lots of books and understanding, what the mob business models and things like that. But when we're conveying a message, just speaking, like real human beings went to one another. 

[00:24:44] Lisa: Eh, you know what, and as you said that I sort of had this, this thought bubble up in my head. It's, you know, I'm looking at you right now and I can see you in your home. Right. I can see a picture of your young child right there, and you can see, you know, you sort of got a window into, into my room to.

Picture of me and my mom when I was little and stuff, you know what I mean? Like we start to see each other. I think that's been interesting throughout this, this pandemic thing for those of us that have been working at home is you get this window into other people's homes and, and it does kind of, connect you differently.

Right. And maybe, maybe that's why there's been this general feeling of let's abandon the corporate speak. Let's just talk like who we are. Right. I don't know. I don't know.

[00:25:25] Jennifer: I think you're right. I think that there's this great kind of equalizer that's happened here. You know, we're all invited into each other's homes. We hear the kids, the animals the interruptions, you know.

You're on a business call and suddenly your kid is behind you. And they're saying that they need you to make them a sandwich.

You're like, not now let's go home. 

[00:25:46] Lisa: Yes.

[00:25:48] Jennifer: You know, it's been fascinating and I think And you know, people have been through a lot, you know, and they're this need for some compassion and understanding and I think that might be part of this. Let's just bring it down to a real human level. 

[00:26:02] Lisa: Yeah, I think that's really, really important. And then I think, I think that's part of the silver lining coming out of this difficulty. Right? Is, is it D it has created more urgency, you know, certainly around. Well, there's the whole DEI conversation, but more urgency to just around the humanity of the workplace.

Right. And how do we, help people stay engaged and meet their needs? It's tough. What are you doing? Thinking about the whole back to work, the hybrid work, that whole conversation.

[00:26:33] Jennifer: Oh, Yeah,

it's a big conversation. We went from a fully 100% in the office environment and you can use that pivot word overnight to virtual. And luckily we had just introduced a few systems and tools. That enabled us to do it, which was amazing. And here we are, we are a partly government funded organization who helps you know, vulnerable people, reenter the workplace.

And these are people who might not have access to internet at home. They might you know, not have a printer to print out their resume and we need to provide them an environment to cut. And have resources at their fingertips. Now, some people access our programs virtually, but some people cannot. So we need to open our doors and we need to be there and in person, but we have proven as an organization that we can do amazing work virtually, and we didn't shrink at all.

We didn't lose a Fingal role during the pandemic we grew. and it's amazing. So we have proven that we can do it, but we do need to be there for people because this is the audience that we serve. So we are moving toward a hybrid model. We've been extremely conservative from a health and safety perspective about.

Bringing people back to the office and about their concerns and about, you know, making sure that we have a vaccination records and we have rapid testing in the office, lot of health and safety. Procedures implemented. So I think we're doing great. We've had fabulous feedback from our staff. We've pulled them, we've done surveys and ask them what more they want us to do.

And we've taken their feedback and implemented it as well. So that was over a year ago, the first time we tried to reopen and then we had to shut down a few weeks later, but we. 

[00:28:22] Lisa: Yes. 

[00:28:23] Jennifer: We bought those temperature, readers, those handhelds, so that everybody could take their temperature reading when they come into the office.

Based on that feedback, got the rapid testing, all lined up. and we are actually starting today to convene our hybrid work model working group 

because we are planning something and Plan to launch for April, for our new fiscal year. and it will look at different roles and different office space environments and plan out exactly what we need to do to move to that.

But right now we are on a very gradual return to work. So it's one day in the office a week. So we are seeing 25% of our, our 20% of our workforce in the office each day. 

Okay, 

so 

[00:29:03] Lisa: staggered. 

[00:29:04] Jennifer: and staggered. 

[00:29:05] Lisa: yet. 

did you, I'm just curious. I mean, it's not really related to talent management, but with the audience you serve the folks that don't have access to the technology how did you serve them over all of those lockdowns?

[00:29:17] Jennifer: Yeah, those individuals were actually quite left without resources because they didn't have somewhere to turn. We did, you know, have virtual workshops and counseling sessions, but we did do the analog version for people who needed it. So you could pick up a telephone and call us for counseling and support.

But yeah, they, they missed their resource center with the papers and the printers 

and access to computers and things like that. Yeah. 

[00:29:41] Lisa: Yeah. And yet you still right. Gave them an ear right. With the old fashioned telephone. I mean, it's so funny. We hardly any of us. Use a telephone anymore. It's really weird. Right? When you think about it, like it just sort of sits there. What it's like, I have a voicemail. Ooh. Who leaves smells.

So, yeah. Okay. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm grateful to hear though that, you know, now that we're sort of hopefully getting back to a new rhythm, maybe not a new normal that those folks will be served as they, as they deserve to be. So, let's, let's shift. I'm curious, especially cause you've got really broad experience across so many industries then union non-union and so on for profit and non w what do you see as the biggest opportunities for talent management and, you know, HR leaders right now?

[00:30:28] Jennifer: Well, I mean, we have this, great resignation happening, right. And we do need to really focus on developing talent. Not only for retention, but to rapidly grow people's careers. I think because I think a lot of workplaces have lot of. In terms of a lot of vacancies Right. now, and I know we do we're growing, so that's part of it.

But we have had people who just, you know, couldn't cope because of family pressures or unfortunate situations that came up through the pandemic. So, you know, it's really important to be developing people. It's a good retention tool. It's a good I think it's so good for the business when you can promote from within, because I think, you know, Promoting from within you know, what people track record is, you know, what their strengths and the opportunities are.

And they have relationships and networks that they can leverage, you know, to do new things in the organization. really spending some time planning succession there's a model. I mean, introducing different models for talent men. I've Started with a nine box reviews. And then we've moved into a model called the six B's about buying, building, borrowing, binding, boosting, and bouncing.

So that's a kind of a landscape review of your talent, right? You can look at what are the critical roles in your organization and who would backfill those roles and what would their development track be? Is that, you know, are we able to boost them? So that they're ready for advancement within six months. Or is this more of a built where you're looking one to two years out and what are the specific components of their development plan and really getting a concrete development plan in place. So that is a big challenge for organizations to spend the time there. and you know, it takes.

Right to have a talent pipeline in place, but you got to start at some point in time. And if, if you're not already doing those activities, those are really important. I think another challenges, you know, because it's, it's a really big labor market, right? So I mean the supply and demand issue really maybe if it makes people feel handcuffed in terms of what they can do with their talent.

And there are some, you know, people who, who might be getting away with behaviors because you know, managers feel a little handcuffed to, to deal with and address them because of talent shortages. So 

I 

[00:32:53] Lisa: Right. 

[00:32:53] Jennifer: a challenge or. 

[00:32:55] Lisa: Yeah. Well, partly ties back to that great resignation and people starting to you know, really get a taste of. Okay. So there was, there were constraints imposed during the pandemic, and now I'm kinda liking being at home or, Hey, you know, I have friends that have moved provinces and so on. Right.

They've you know, people we've discovered. Jeez. If you can do it virtually, you can do it from anywhere. And 

so people sort of grappling with, what do I really want to do? It's created that question for many. 

[00:33:19] Jennifer: Well, 

that's another part of the challenge, right? So.

I mean, with people moving you know, that that creates challenges because I don't know if everybody's thought through like legal implications if you're going to move provinces there are different laws, you know, and if you don't operate in that province, Then what do you do or country, you know, for that matter?

there are technology constraints, there are security constraints, there's insurance, payroll. There's so many things 

that come into play when people relocate. Right. And so, Because we are such a in-person focus. You know, we, we can't have people moving away to not ever be able to come back into the office.

So we don't have that problem. We have had people for short terms who had to be in a different country. 

And then the issue is, do you let them. While they're in the different country or not. Right. And different businesses will have different needs that way. Right. but you're right. You know, as much as there is a opportunity now and freedom to work from different places there's also the risk of, you know, outsourcing then, you know, if you make your job too versatile, then you know, it could become very versatile 

and you need to don't, you don't want that to happen. 

[00:34:28] Lisa: Yeah. Well, it could open you up to different opportunities, certainly if somebody lost their job here, right. Because they demanded versatility and it wasn't working for the business. I mean, it is, it's one of those things. It's I think it's about compromising and case by case we have a general policy and then there's flexibility within that framework.

Right. As you deal situationally with each person's circumstances, but that said, you know, I start thinking about the generosity of time. Again, it takes time. You need. to be thoughtful in how you manage that. Yeah. So much going on. So we're near the end of our time. So I'd like to offer you a bit of a wrap up question, which is, you know, when you think about your, all your years in our fields, what's the biggest lesson that you've learned.

[00:35:10] Jennifer: I think the biggest lesson I've learned.

is well, I think one thing that did serve well is to. Just expose myself to different things and to, to overcome any fear or, you know, inhibitions and lack of confidence that might come with feeling like you don't know how to handle it. exposure To different opportunities has been the biggest blessing because that led to new opportunities.

So I think, you know, Keep putting your hand up for those special assignments. That is really important piece of advice, I think because that exposure will just take you down and you never know what, what will open up in the future that will draw on that specific skill set that you developed along the way.

another thing that I think. Might be good to mention to other people is, you know, in terms of resources, 

specifically for talent management there is something that I have drawn on a lot in terms of creating development plans for people. And it's just a simple book it's called FYI for your improvement. 

[00:36:13] Lisa: It's quarter 

it. 

[00:36:14] Jennifer: KornFerry 

book. 

[00:36:15] Lisa: Yes. Yes. Oh, yeah, let's see. 

They changed the cover. 

[00:36:20] Jennifer: for, for development planning that has been a beautiful resource for me to open up. You pick a competency, open the page, and it gives you lists of activities and recommended reading and things like that. And They do update it from time to time. So it's an important resource, I think for people who work in the talent management field and I've drawn on it for several of my roles.

And I thought that would be something good to recommend to your listeners. 

[00:36:48] Lisa: Thank you all. That's I appreciate you bringing that along. I'm going to put the link to where, to where to find that in the show notes, because that is an important one. I think you know, one of the most important things that, that we can do in, in helping leaders lead effectively is to help them with that concept of development planning.

And how do you continually help your employees? You know, grow and step into their potential. Cause we're never done. You're never, you know, take a course in, oh, there you go. Your, your excellence. Right. And there's, there's no need for new growth ever again. It's not like that. So I think, you know, books like the FYI, but also that that coaching, that partnering to help them create really specific.

Actionable plans that really actually lead to somebody's developing and getting new opportunities and learning. Right. It helps everybody. It helps with engagement in the organization. It helps with the results that are created. So, yeah, I think that's 

an excellent, yeah. Excellent example.

Thank you. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. I can't believe like the time just flew. I always say that. I just Yeah, we could talk about this for hours. I think overall. you very much. 

[00:37:58] Jennifer: That was my pleasure. Thanks, Lisa.