Creativity by Constraint with Natalia Matusevscaia

“Creativity doesn’t exist when you don’t have constraints.”
-Natalia Matusevscaia

Have you ever been frustrated when you were down a team member or were low on other resources or funds?  What was the gift in that situation?  Chances are, the constraint you were faced with helped you be more creative and innovative.  Today’s guest shares clear examples of this in action.

My guest is Natalia Matusevscaia. An immigrant to Canada, Natalia is a migrant to the domain of educational technology, human performance, and instructional design from the field of education. 

With the deep academic knowledge, secured by two BA degrees and an MA in Educational Technology and Instructional Design, and rich professional experience as a curriculum designer, instructional designer, a teacher, and a corporate human performance specialist, Natalia is constantly on a search to make a notable contribution into the development and professional growth of adult performers. 

Natalia has more than 7 years of professional instructional design and leadership experience and currently supports Fairstone as the Director of People Development. Throughout her career as Learning and Development Specialist, Natalia was part of instructional design groups who provided multiple learning solutions to perfect employees’ performance at Canada Post, Canadian Railway, United Nations initiatives, etc.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• Two things we should all make time for
• The concept of triaging priorities
• A case for NOT referring to the people in organizations as family

Links

• Natalia Matusevscaia on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalia-matusevscaia-ba54a480/

Looking for a Team Coach or dynamic Keynote Speaker/Facilitator?

Book a call with me to explore how we might partner (serious inquiries only please):

https://calendly.com/lisa-mitchell-greenapple/clarity-call

Share the Show

Like what you’ve heard? Pretty please with an apple on top - kindly leave me a 5* review so that others can find the show and elevate their impact too! Here are the simple instructions:

• Launch Apple's Podcast app on your iPhone or iPad.
• Tap the Search icon (on the botton) and search for the show name.
• Tap the show's cover art.
• On the podcast page, tap the Reviews tab.
• Tap "Write a Review" at the bottom of this page.

Follow me

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-mitchell-acc-ctdp-7437636/

Instagram: @greenappleconsulting

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/greenappleconsulting.ca

Transcript

LM Ep 115

 [00:00:00] Have you ever been frustrated when you were down a team member or were low on other resources or funds? What was the gift in that situation? Chances are the constraint you were faced with helped you be more creative and innovative. [00:01:00] Today's guest shares clear examples of this in action. My guest is Natalia Makaya.

She currently supports Fair Stone as the Director of People Development. She brings a wide range of education and work experience to her role. Natalia has two BA degrees and an MA in educational technology and instructional design, along with rich professional experience as a curriculum designer, instructional designer, a teacher, and a corporate human performance specialist.

In this episode, you'll discover two things. We should all make time for the concept of triaging priorities and a case for not referring to people in organizations as family. Thanks for listening. Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Natalia Matus She is the Director of People Development at Fair Stone Bank, and it's such a pleasure to [00:02:00] have you on this show, Natalia.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Thank you so much, Lisa. It's my honor to be here and I'm looking forward to all the questions and potentially good answers that I can give.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Oh, I'm sure there's gonna be lots of good answers. I'm looking forward to it too as well. So, so let's start off by having you share a little bit about who you are and your career journey to date.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Okay, well, my career journey is a very long one, and I like to present myself usually as a curious mind because that's what actually what I do. I explore, I find solutions and I hope that I support. Other people to develop these curious minds. My career uh, starts very, very far away from here in a country that does not exist anymore.

It's Soviet Union. We don't have it anymore, but my half of my life, I was there and I got a good education there. I was a teacher for [00:03:00] 15 years and at one moment I decided that I need to immigrate and I. And I was very happy to be welcomed in Canada. However Canada also brought me into thinking if I wanna continue to be a teacher or what exactly I like about teaching.

Thinking about this, I found the beautiful program in Canadian University master program that is called Instructional design and educational Technology. Graduating this program opens so many new doors, and here I am in a very good place in my career and doing actually what I like to do.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Wonderful. Well, and I, you know, I want to acknowledge that, you know, to, to to immigrate is a huge, huge thing in a person's life. I, I have not experienced that myself. I have lived abroad in another country, so I've had a taste of it for a year. So, you know, coming and kind of reinventing and, and seeking [00:04:00] a, a higher education on top of it in your new country in a language that is not your native language even is.

Very impressive. And I just wanna say to listeners, we just discovered too that both of us have degrees in linguistics, which is kind

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Yes, we

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: And you just said you were a teacher and so was I only for a few years, but there you go. Something else we have in comment. So, so you, you got your master's in Educational technology and what did you do after that?

Where did that take you?

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Well, actually I started to work as instructional designer while I was taking this degree and I am really happy with meeting a lot of professors who I. Just put a problem in front of my face and saying that, look, here is what you can do. Are you interested to do some trainings for, let's say, somewhere in the restaurant?

Of course I was not paid, but this is where I start. And right after graduation, I already had experience in the field and. And [00:05:00] continued working in the company in Ottawa. That was ascent compliance. It was a starter. And that's why it made the so interesting to work because they didn't have anything, right?

So you come in, they have this incredible growth in the company but they don't have any resources to support the development of their people and use. Start from the blank slate. Again, I was very lucky to have a amazing boss who believed in me and who trusted me that I would do the right thing.

And that changed the world for me in understanding how to help managers to grow people in a way that they deliver. And happy that they deliver.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yeah, it's interesting how that was such a pivotal experience for you, right, because I, I'm still very proud of my friendships with a group of, [00:06:00] we were all, you know, managers and so on. Going way, way back. In the late nineties kind of thing at a company called Edge Links. It was previously part of CIBC and the people I met there.

But the experiences, the leadership opportunities that we all were afforded, it was such a time of phenomenal growth and there was something magical about that place where we were all kind of challenged to. I don't know, make the leap, you know, in, in our, in our careers and to learn and grow and, and be autonomous.

And like, it was a, there was a sense of, of independence and empowerment there that, that, that I has yet to be matched in my career, although I've had other great experiences too, for different reasons. Yeah, it's really important. now that you're at Fair Stone Bank, tell us a little bit about your team and the nature of the work you do there, and maybe a little bit about what Fair does.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Well, if you ask me about team, I will not stop talking because this is how much I love them. Okay, so I will start with Fair Stone because this place [00:07:00] is. Completely different from any other workplaces that I've been. And it provides me also with different experience, different expectations that I face.

And, I like it. Fair Stone is the Fair Stone Bank and what we do, we lend loans for people who need monetary support from coast to coast, we are big. We are in every province and territory in Canada. And that's another complexity that is layered up. Onto what is on my plate and what my team is doing with all these big projects that we have to complete.

My team is very small including me. We are four people and we are tasked to, support people development in the whole company. Of course, we are not doing it alone. We are a part of a bigger teams like, people [00:08:00] engagement, which is an HR who guides support and actually help us prioritize what's the first.

In value was the second and third. So we are never alone. However, it was four people that are taking care of not only providing training, but also analyzing the needs that are there, designing the solution for every need developing the final product of course evaluating the results after the implementation.

So all that for people.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Four people. Okay. And there's about 1800 employees,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Yes, that is correct. That is correct,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: so that's, that's really interesting. 'cause, you know, I hear it all the time from, from clients or just people that, that I meet with in general, like that, you know, everybody wishes they had more resources most of the time, right?

Like, oh, if only I had one more pair of hands over here. And, and organizations, truthfully, [00:09:00] our, our run very lean, generally speaking, I mean, it's only gotten more intense in that regard, I think over the last couple of decades. So, with you, like, what are some examples of how you've been able to leverage, you know, your small and mighty team to scale solutions to meet the needs of 1800 people,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Well, it's a good, it's a good question. I wanna believe that we are successful in this. Well, I can share maybe several tactics that I use. A first tactic that I would like to share with everybody is I take time. And I know that it'll sound very weird, especially when everything is a rush and when you have a project, the due date is yesterday.

We, we all face that. Right? However, I am taking time and I am making sure my team takes time for two things. One thing is planning. We are not jumping into designing, delivering, [00:10:00] and talking to subject matter experts, working with everybody until we plan. We have to plan when, by what time? Who has to be involved?

What is the cross-functional team that's supposed to be built? Who is the stakeholders? What. That we're doing in the end how the success looks like, and sometimes it takes even more than the developing of this small module of 10 minutes. However, that allows us to spend less time developing because we don't face the roadblocks when everything is planned.

The second thing that we are paying attention at and making sure we take time is quality assurance. I was working in several other companies and everywhere I saw one big gap in assuring that whatever you deliver has[00:11:00] standard quality that is acceptable for this place. And I'm not talking about if everything works, like all the links, all the buttons.

Well, it, it's a given. You have to take into consideration the technical aspect and make sure that you test your product. I am talking about the quality assurance on a different stages. If we design a solution to cover the prob problem we have to. Assure pedagogical quality that is there without this insurance, guess what we implement and we don't have the results that we wanna have.

Right. So assuring it early in the stage when the design is done, that's a key for us

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: So it sounds like, you know, when I, when I like just to jump in for a sec. Like, I wanna see if we're on the same page. It, it's, you know, what you call quality assurance. I typically have called evaluation strategy. Right. Which I [00:12:00] develop anything, so it's actually part and parcel of any talent initiative strategy.

So I've embedded how are we going to know if this created the shift in performance and results that we are looking for. Yeah.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Exactly. Can go a little bit more granular for me specifically because the pedagogical quality assurance. We also use when we evaluate, let's say the script, which is a document that says every listed, every word and image that will be used later on

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: So this is all in the e-learning

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: it's not, not necessarily even in the sessions that we are delivering virtual session, we still have to have.

A script, something that would show the flow, right? So that pedagogical quality is there. The second level of assurance that we are doing is linguistic. I know me and you, we will understand that, right? [00:13:00] But it, it, it's it's employee's experience in the end that suffers if we have, I don't know, wrong punctuation or maybe misspelled word, and guess what?

Employee will remember that. Word instead of remembering what the course is about. Right. And the third level and the last level of assurance that we are doing is technical is the last loss, last thing. So yes, our buttons work. Yes, all the links are accessible and everything that we need to be included in the e-learning in this case works.

So, for me, that's that's the key to make sure that you are not going circles to read. Do some stuff. You're not going circles into sculping the project because for some reason in the middle of the project it appears to be not the right scope that you are looking in. So, time in the beginning, time in the quality assurance stages [00:14:00] and that's just goes like a machine with oil.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yes, I hear you and I agree wholeheartedly. It's this idea of, you know, what's the end in mind? How do we know what's it gonna look like when we get there, and what are all the core parts that, core elements of what's. What, how we define success for this particular initiative. And you know, I have to say, when you were talking about the linguistic quality, 'cause of course I'm all over that, me and my word games, my wordle and all these different puzzles that I like to do.

But it's very, I remember years ago, and it was actually at Edge Links, the company I mentioned before. So this was going back a very long time. But I, I manage the knowledge base group, which is an online. Electronic performance support system that was built into the interface that all of the customer service reps and all of the operations analysts used, because we were, we were doing it was, it was student loans, osap and federal assistance and so on.

And so every province and federal loan product, they all had different rules and regulations. So we had online support that was [00:15:00] contextual, you know, very manually built back and, and everything. But it was pretty, pretty avantgarde at the time. Actually, this thing that. Their sole role was to write stuff that went on to the knowledge base, right.

And to, to support just in time performance. And I remember distinctly with two individuals and they were very bright, but early on, and they've both gone on to, to do great things. I. But I remember them really challenging me around why I was so picky about grammar and structure on certain things and getting crisp and having consistency with even just how we reference things and

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Mm,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: files.

The Noman reviews. And they were like, I don't get it. And I remember being the kid, you know, in school saying, why do I have to write an essay on a novel when I, I just, I enjoyed it. Why do I have to think about it? You know what I mean? And, and it sort of took me. Initially I sort of that and then ended up being, you know, minoring in English.

But with these knowledge based analysts, I remember them going it.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Mm,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Well, [00:16:00] yes it does, because any little is distraction and then there's a CSS talking to a customer and they're noticing, you know, weird spaces or misspelled word or strange grammatical structure. They might say it sounds funny to the customer, but they also might sort of stumble or be distracted in some way and, and that lowers their quality of service.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: absolutely. I can tell you that it hit me hard. I think it was around six years ago I was in another company and we had several merchants coming in giving us. Their products and one of the product was a pamphlet. Okay? They were talking about their company, their pamphlets they were pitching, which is perfect.

However, on the title page of that pamphlet, one word was misspelled by one letter. Guess what? My boss at that time, she said, I am not even going to [00:17:00] listen to your pitch. Because the quality of the stuff that you deliver even for yourself is not there. Why would I give you my money to do something that I'm not sure will be the high quality that I expect.

One letter. So after that, I make sure that whatever I do or whatever we produce as a team is all, always have the linguistic review. Absolutely.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: And I mean, you know, there's some you know, functions in an organization where it doesn't matter as much. Whereas tax where it's more, you know. Informal and all that, but this is, you know, these are, we're talking about knowledge workers, people that are putting communications in writing out to the world.

And so it, it is part and parcel. And you know what I just wrote down, did you, did you ever see, I think the movie is, we are the Millers and Jason, ted Lasso. It's his name right now. I can't think of his last name. Anyways, Jason, who plays Ted Lasso, he's in this [00:18:00] movie and he's talking to, I think it's his the, the daughter's boyfriend.

Okay. She gets this boyfriend, brings him home, and he's covered in tattoos. And some listeners are probably nodding their head and already started giggle because he's, he's his main tattoo says NO. No.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: mm-Hmm.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: R-A-G-E-R-E-T-S. No regrets.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Oh my God, I couldn't.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: So the dad, the dad, Jason, is, is interviewing, or is interviewing, is meeting him, is talking to him and he is like, yeah. You know, like, yeah, my philosophy is no regrets. Yo, and, and Jason goes, not even one letter. I'm not doing it justice, but you've gotta Google that scene if you've never seen it. 'cause it is so funny. But it's, it's just a great example of, of he was so distracted he couldn't even

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Oh yeah,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: seriously.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: yeah, [00:19:00] exactly. So that's I consider a secret, but I just shared with all of your listeners. So please, guys, keep in mind that don't spread the news. It's a secret.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Awesome. So how do you, so this is interesting. So, so you're, you're part of the way you scale, if we go back, sort of the original sort of. Piece here was that, you know, you take time for two things, being planning and quality assurance. And, and I you are singing from the same songbook. Okay? So I think this is important.

And, you know, people struggle to take the time, even if they know that. Taking that time to more planful and strategic is important, is critical. I, I see people daily struggling with this, so what are your tips or, or suggestions about how to structure it in Bake it in, integrate it to the day-to-Day.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Well, I think those people who struggle, they also get up from their desk and go to drink coffee. Right. That's your time to take some [00:20:00] time. I. You know, all the ev every minute you spend to take the coffee or chat with the coworker, we are back in the offices right now, right? This is something that you can save and make sure that you channel it to the right task that you're doing.

So that's one. And, and it's personal organization too, you know, I mean, you, you are, you are not jumping in the plane and going wherever the plane is going, but on your vacation, you plan it right? Because you wanna have a good vacation, well, why wouldn't you wanna have a good project result to have your vacation after that?

So it, it's simple common sense for me. I know people struggle. I believe that sometimes it's personal because of the types of characters. Styles of communication that people have which is, which is fine, but time management and [00:21:00] planning, that should be in the list of your personal skills to develop if you wanna make sure that you can scale what you are doing.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yeah, well, I was just doing one of my regular talent talks today at, at noon with a, with a group of, of, talented talent. People like us. I like to think, and you know, that's one of the things that. I, you know, was saying to them, 'cause this topic of like, how do you find time for this stuff is, and we were talking about agile leadership in this example, but I had said to them, because I remember this really standing out for me.

Somebody said it to me at one point, but you know, I brushed my teeth this morning. Yesterday morning, in the morning before that, and every evening as well. It's rare that I miss that. And, and so why is that? Because I've built a habit around it, so now it's mindless. Right. And I like having clean teeth.

It's, it's, I I see the benefit of it, right? So it's, it's this. You know, how do we challenge ourselves to bake in the time for that plan, knowing that it, the [00:22:00] possibilities, you know, in terms of our ability to be more efficient and to scale and so on in spite of limited

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: exactly. Yeah.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yeah. So this takes me to another question 'cause I think you have a really great perspective on this and, and you know, it's this, this.

Idea that, so with a small team, I, I had said to you when we first met was, what, what do you do, you know, if you, if you lose a staff member, how would that kind of hit you? And tell me about, tell me about your reaction to that.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Well, look, I always dreamt to have a high performing team and. It has a special meaning for me because having a high performing team, it's a direct result. Result of managers work together with the people for them to grow to this level of collaboration and working together, right? So if I don't have it, it means I didn't do my job.

However, the result of this [00:23:00] job will ensure that nothing falls. Through the cracks when a change happens, when you lose a person, when I don't know, there is a stop in operations or a change in plans, priorities and all that things that we leave through they are still the, the people that can do their job, they can work together without.

Actually asking for, for help. They can deliver results and all that because they grow together. Okay. They grow into their result mode together and I, I try to work with them on one thing, witches. When people storm into your office and start yelling that, look, I have an emergency. There is something that I, I really need right [00:24:00] now.

Because otherwise that's it. Everything stops and I dunno, well, I compare it always with the heart surgery. Well, we are not doing the heart surgery. Okay. We, no, I don't think so. But at the same time, you know, when all those due yesterday comes in and hits your table coming back to the planning, you have to have a very good triage on the priorities and, and working with the team that is high performing, they know.

What they have to pay attention right now without asking Natalia, what are we do? No. They have to take decisions and live with the consequences. That's what they know, but they also know how to do this triage. Right? What is important? Who this is coming [00:25:00] from? What is the results of something that let's say, will be delivered not yesterday, but today, morning?

What will happen if it will? Be delayed for two days. Can we do it alone or we have to put a rush on other teams to help us? So these, you know, it's like, emergency room, right? You are going into emergency room and you feel bad. You, you, you are sick and you don't know what, what's happening with you. And somehow the nurse comes to you, takes your vitals, talk to you as much as you can answer, and she goes away and you don't hear anything.

Right? Well. What did, what the nurse did, she triaged you. She figured out that you are not in immediate danger. And yes, there are some other people who can die right now and they need the help. Even though you feel bad, you will still have to wait. So this is the way how in hospitals, they make sure that they are not [00:26:00] going crazy and they're still sane.

And helping people. So I think that system of triaging is, is very useful in whatever we are doing and dealing with priorities.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: It's critical, it's actually a core skill. So I'm, I'm mentoring a senior leader who's just taken on a learning and development portfolio, and she's never owned it before. So they're, you know,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: That's a challenge.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: she's hight potential. So she's adding this into another portfolio she already owned. And so I'm working with her externally, but also with her team would be doing some training with them.

So that's one of the pieces that, that I'm gonna be teaching them. And. Develop is their triage system. But what I had the smile as you were describing, the whole emergency room because people can't see this unless I put this on later, but I'm showing my broken finger on screen here because I broke it about three, three weeks. Oh yeah. Just slipped on the, on the steps of my own home and I broke it and dislocated it and compacted it.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Oh my God.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: I went in. It was an evening. My son, my, my teen son took me, he drives now handy. Took me to emergency [00:27:00] 'cause my husband wasn't home and I knew I was gonna be there a while. Right now my finger was pointing sideways, like it was very obvious it was broken and was not the way it should be.

And I had this little bag of, but when I finally got in there. I'm hanging onto this and there's water dripping and everything. And so it's this woman at the front, she's just at this sort of mobile desk and she's like, yeah, what's her name? It's like, name in my health card. And she's like, oh, looks like you broke something.

I'm like, yep. And I was really like, I was shaken and I

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Well, yes.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: at that

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Painful.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: And she was like, okay, thanks. And you know, health card. Okay, go sit.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Mm-Hmm

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: And it was very brief and there were a lot of people in there. And, and, and my son was kind of like miffed, I think. You know, like, what? Why didn't she? And I said, because now you see there's these offices called Triage one and two, and there's nurses in there that are gonna do a deeper triage.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: exactly.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Then from there they'll figure out what do they do with me? And I said, and there's people in here that're probably worse off. And sure enough, there was this little girl who was sitting just [00:28:00] across from us and huddled up on her mom's chest and she did not look well. And she was coughing. Her mom was coughing.

The mom's mom was there holding both big purses on her and trying to push them around in a wheelchair. Anyways, so they came in after me and they got triaged really quickly. And when I had finally gotten into the. Deeper into the depths of the hospital waiting for the X-ray. Little while after I saw that little girl being taken out on a stretcher by paramedics, they were

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Oh my God. PO

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: because I, I asked the nurse.

Yeah. So she was very sick. So, and you know, and that's what we want, right? We want. To like, even though I was in pain, and of course I wanted good care, I was, I'm like that little kid, like, we gotta, like, that's, that's serious stuff, right? And I'm gonna be okay. I just gotta be uncomfortable a bit longer. So, and if you think about that and you extrapolate that to organizations, I.

Right. Th this makes it easier to have the conversations with your [00:29:00] stakeholders if you actually tell 'em right now. You know, I, I used to walk around with my annual planner, and I've mentioned it on the show before, and I'm happy to share it with anybody that reaches out, but it was a way to show stakeholders what was in the pipeline, what was already committed and was being delivered on a month to month basis, and what was in the pipeline, so that they're saying, no, no, no.

My stuff's more important than the CAO or the

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Of course.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: whoever it was, right? Because.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Of course.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: could say, well actually, so let's look at this sort of globally for the overall organization. If we plunk that in here, this is the domino effect it has on other things. So I think we would, you know, if you're still feeling very strongly about that, you know, I think we're gonna need to have a higher level of discussion with everybody in the room so we can triage this properly.

And using, using the language I think is

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Mm-Hmm, absolutely. I think as soon as people see the consequences like domino effect that you mentioned, right? The consequences of whatever change will be in the plan. Not everybody jumps in and said, yes, please make this change. I [00:30:00] think they start. Looking at that into what will I cause with pushing my project first, right?

And I know it's not the right thing to, to say, but that's how people will start thinking when they see it.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Well, so, and also in this vein, you, you had told me that there was something very important that you learned when you were pursuing your master's, which was around, you know, if you do lose a staff member or all of a sudden you've got some kind of constraint that, or you

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Oh

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: It's been imposed on you. You know that, that it's very easy for all of us, you know, sort of, oh my God, now what I'm gonna do, you know, more with less, blah, blah, blah. This sucks. Right? You had a different take on it. What's your take?

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Oh yes, I did have, and I still do have this take on it. Well, you see, when I was in a university in Canada I selected the thesis option, I guess because I like writing words, I dunno. the topic of the thesis was focused [00:31:00] on creativity. Okay, so I try to explore, okay if everybody wants you to be creative, what does that mean?

Because believe it or not, the, there is no exact definition of the word creativity itself, because creativity leads to innovation. Innovation is the result, but creativity is the process. So what does it mean? Because every process supposed to be step one, step two, step three, right? Creativity doesn't have that.

So I was exploring the topic and there is one big lesson that I have from this time and I am implementing it with my team. you see creativity is, does not exist when you don't have constraints. Because when you don't have constraints, you can do whatever you want. So. How do you say that?

It [00:32:00] results in innovation and you actually use the creative process. You had everything, but creativity kicks in when you have those constraints, like we are all talking about the sandbox going outside of the sandbox. Yes. But it's still supposed to have some borders that you action inside of them and you are being creative inside of them.

You are. Choosing one person in your team. Well, what is your creative solution to delivering the same amount of materials or trainings to your huge company? Is it changing tasks? Is it reprioritizing? Is it train another person on a skill that is lost when. That first person left the team, right?

What's your solution? There's so many of them. So, without constraints, you are not creative. And that's my lesson and I hope that it works for everybody.[00:33:00] 

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yeah, I love that. And I, and I agree. 'cause I think about, you know, small space decorating. I remember my husband and I first condo. Was, you know, 750 square feet and, and it was, it was small. And so we got really, I actually enjoyed it. I was reading everything I could on small space organization and, and you know, just from how we organized the furniture right to take this big long room and have multiple zones, so to speak.

And then from storage and everything. And then I think about. You know, for me it always sort of goes to design, like, 'cause that's sort of my, where I get my creative spark. And we renovated, you know, 10 years ago or something, our master bathroom, like our, our bedroom, we have this ginormous bedroom. It's not a massive house, but the bedroom is very large and I've never quite understood why.

And yet we have this linen closet. And this dinky little shower. And we were working with the contrary and we're like, we want, like, we wish we could have a bigger shower, but the bathroom space was only so big and get into structural issues if we were trying to move walls and stuff like that and [00:34:00] plumbing.

So anyways, he said, what if you took the linen closet out from the hallway and, and that open it up. I'm like, oh. And I remember thinking. Ugh, do I like that? You know, what do I do? Because then the new problem was where I had to get creative was what do I do with my lens? Where do I, where do I, well, I have this massive bedroom. I could figure that out and build some storage in there. You know? So it was interesting because we ended up with something that was more beautiful than what was,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Mm-Hmm,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: even though it's less con, it's less conventional.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Yeah, but if you think back a little bit, you know, in other people's experiences, actually the biggest inventions happen when there is something amiss, for example. Or people when don't like something, right? For example. Remember those? I don't know if very young people listening this podcast.

But remember those times when we had we, we take pictures with the cameras on the file. We have to develop the pictures, right?

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: And you'd be [00:35:00] like, oh.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: but you also will see that everybody has red eyes, right? So that was a very big downfall of having these cameras and the pictures. Nobody liked having the red eyes.

So the invention in the end of the day, instead to make sure that the cameras don't create this flash when the eye reacts right. So right now all the cameras have double flash. One for the eye to react, be red and second, even though you don't see it, the second flash actually takes your picture when the eye already does not react in, in, in the light.

So when something goes wrong, this is where creativity kicks. When you lose a person in the team, this is where creativity kicks when the priorities change in the company or there is a big change management according to some projects. I, I, I'm not sure, but this is where [00:36:00] creativity kicks. Otherwise it, it's not kicking.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yeah. And it doesn't mean, you know, that, that, you know, long term you have to, to suffer, right. If there's a case to be made to backfill that position or to add, you know, and so we are talking about how do you make the most of it in the meantime, right? How do you, you. Look at it as an opportunity before it's just, you know, sort of a default blah.

This is,

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Yes, exactly.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: problem. That sucks. Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, we're, we're nearing the end of our time together and I think there's just so, so many directions we could go with this. But one thing that I did wanna want to discuss with you on the show today, 'cause I think you have an interesting take on it, is, is, is your view on high performing teams being an organism but not a family?

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Yes. Actually I don't like, and I don't trust people who say that Come work with us. We are like a family here. Well, here's the thing. I believe that [00:37:00] every high performance team, it's an organism that has arms, legs, head, every other piece of the body that any organism has for it to function. So, not having a broken feet.

Skin will help the body to function. Right. So everybody, exactly. So everybody in the team has their function and they work together to deliver. When we are saying that we are a, a family, it actually brings a little bit less value because you love your family, you love people unconditionally in your family, right?

So you. Close your eyes on some things that the family member would do, would say, right? Or you just don't pay attention on something that you don't feel comfortable with. They're different family relationship in the best families of all, right? But here's the thing. [00:38:00] Every small details that you do not pay attention at in the team or don't or just forgive for, you know, it was a small mishap.

Let's forget about this and move on. Well, no, we will not forget about this. We will make our, conclusions we will find the better ways and then we'll move on. And this is, for me, a big difference with being a family and seeing a team as a workplace, being an organism that is well oiled, fully functioned, and healthy.

There we go.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Yeah. The organism is a, is a, is an interesting metaphor as I've often, I call it an ecosystem, right? We're all part of this, like, so we're interconnected and intertwined. I think you make a good point. You know, 'cause when I think about families, families are often dysfunctional. I know my own. It's certainly

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: I shouldn't laugh at

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: immediate family, but the family I grew up with, there was some dysfunction there.

And, and you know, I speak, I say that lovingly of course, [00:39:00] but you know, you're, the point that stood out here was, you know, you love your family unconditionally. And yet by virtue of working with an organization and that, you know, there are conditions. So I think of my last organization, we used that term family all the time.

The president was big on that. We are family. I, I drank the Kool-Aid initially, but I gotta tell you, the more I saw some cutthroat kind of behaviors from senior leaders, you know, when they were done with somebody, I was like, oh, that's not how you would treat fam, really. So, yeah. So I, I think you've given us some good food for thought Indeed.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Well, I hope so, because if you think about this, you cannot. how to say that? Give up on a family member. Like I would not, let's say that. Okay. But there are some difficult decisions sometimes as managers have to, to do. Have to make a very difficult decision. There are terminations if we talk openly, right?

There are some things that has to bring changes to the team structure or business [00:40:00] organization with all the consequences that coming out for that from that, right? It's not something that you would de. Would do in the family and it would just destroy the thing. So you don't want it to be a family.

You want it to be again, a body, an organism to work.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: And it doesn't get away from, you know, being a, a happy, engaged organism that, that has good working relationships. And so, yeah. Yeah, we're not taking away from, you know, the, the interpersonal interactions and the need to, to have

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Absolutely

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: on. Yeah. But it, it is very interesting to kind of break it down like that. Thank you so much, Natalie. We have covered a lot of ground and I think you've given us some great insights into working with small teams, certainly and thinking about how to help teams in general be more effective, effective through planning, through triaging, and so on. Thank you

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate2: Thank you. It was my pleasure to be here with you. I.

Natalia M GMT20231116-204111_Recording_separate1: Wonderful. [00:41:00]