How to Help Leaders Give Honest Feedback with Abby Hamilton

“I think the most important thing is that people just want to know the truth most of the time, even if that truth might sting a little bit at the moment."
-Abby Hamilton

How do you prepare your organization’s leaders to give feedback well?  Do your leaders do a good job with feedback? Or do they struggle - either because  their heads are in the sand or because they are being too directive?    In today’s episode, my guest shares her views on the importance of supporting leaders, especially new ones, to give feedback in a way that builds trust. 

My guest is Abby Hamilton. Abby is the Chief People Officer at LiveIntent, a leading people-based marketing platform. In her role, she oversees a wide range of human resources functions including recruitment, performance evaluation, cultural transformation, employee engagement, leadership coordination, professional development, HR information systems, succession planning, and leveraging data for strategic decision-making. Abby's leadership extends across LiveIntent's two R&D centers in Europe and its New York headquarters, emphasizing the integration of data science, engineering, revenue, and marketing to enhance organizational effectiveness.

With 20 years of experience in recruiting and HR, Abby has spearheaded People teams within the advertising technology, marketing technology, pharmaceuticals, and medical devices sectors. Her approach focuses on developing innovative, practical solutions to talent acquisition challenges, establishing globally consistent programs, and collaborating with company leaders to encourage employees to excel. Abby is an esteemed member of the LinkedIn Expert Advisory Group and Chief, a private network dedicated to the advancement and support of female executives.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• Insights into various feedback models and what works well and less well
• The power of role-play in helping leaders build feedback muscle
• A peek into the structure of  LiveIntent’s Lead with Intent leadership program

Links

• Abby Hamilton on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abbyhamilton/ 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] 

How do you prepare your organization's leaders to give feedback? Well, do your leaders do a good job with feedback, or do they struggle either because their heads are in the sand or because they're being too directive? In today's episode, my guest shares [00:01:00] her views on the importance of supporting leaders, especially new ones, to give feedback in a way that builds trust.

My guest is Abby Hamilton. Abby is the Chief People Officer at Live Intent, a leading people-based marketing platform. Her leadership extends across live intents. Two r and d centers in Europe and its New York headquarters emphasizing the integration of data science, engineering revenue, and marketing to enhance organizational effectiveness.

She has 20 years of experience in recruiting in HR and has spearheaded people, teams within the advertising, technology, marketing, technology, pharmaceuticals, and medical devices sectors. In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover insights into various feedback models and what works well and less well.

The power of role play in helping leaders build feedback muscle and a peek into the structure of live intense lead with intent leadership program. I know you're going to get a lot out of this episode. Thanks so much for [00:02:00] listening.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truce. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I'm joined by Abby Hamilton. Abby is the Chief People Officer at Live Intent. Welcome to the show, Abby.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Thank you, Lisa. I'm excited to be here.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: let's hear a little bit about your path. How did you get to where you are now?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Oh goodness. Completely. By accident thinking, thinking back, I was, was lucky enough to, to get into the agency recruitment world very early in my career, coming from recruitment or coming from retail, I should say, into to recruitment, and I really didn't know what I was getting into. I thought at the time, if I talk on the phone all day and I work hard, I can make money and I could do those things, right?

The reality is, is it turned out to be very, very different job than that, and it [00:03:00] continued to progress and build on itself and I don't think 22-year-old me thought I would be chief people officer one day. Yet here I am.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Fascinating, isn't it? I love hearing about how people, you know, the twists and the turns along the path. So you started out in agency recruitment and when did you kind of, like, at what point did you make the. The jump into, into corporate itself, being on the other side of the desk.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so a, a couple years into my tenure I got call from Johnson and Johnson to, to join their contract recruitment team. And I. I worked for a very small staffing agency at the time, that was all women. And I went in and I talked to my boss and I said, I'd gotten this call from j and j and they wanted me to come interview that week.

And she looked at me, you know, a big shout out to Debbie Bruno at the time. And she said, they are going to hire you. You should, you should go and take this interview. And she got really teary-eyed. And she [00:04:00] said, i, I knew I was never gonna be able to keep you forever. And she was right. I got the job and that was my start in the, the corporate world there.

And then after j and j, I continued down the pharmaceutical route for a while and then moved into Ad Tech. Where I am now, live intent is in the ad tech sector where we're based in New York City and talent turned into talent management, inclusive of succession planning and development programs, which turned into HR business partner work, which turned into more senior HR leader roles, benefits, payroll, all of that.

So I came up in a semi non-traditional path into hr. I moved from recruitment into. HR and HR business partner work as I then moved up to, to lead the full functions and move into a VP position. And when I joined Live Intent, I joined as a VP and got promoted to SVP, then got promoted to Chief People Officer.

And while I [00:05:00] was always the leader of HR at this organization, what I think has really changed over the six years I've been at the company is. The belief in people programs and that this foundational investment really matters. And I think that's not just a testament to my work, but a testament to my team and really having great people around me that are willing to roll up their sleeves and, and do the work as well.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yeah. That's awesome. And, and I do think that the, the ongoing promotions over those six years that you've been there, it does point to an increased understanding of the value that. Focus on people and culture brings to an organization, so, right. So it's, it's, it's, you know, it's really, it's that whole idea of earning the place at the table and sometimes, you know, that is reflected directly in the title.

Right. Is it, is, you know, 'cause I, how often do you see organizations where you've got all these C-Suite people and then it's a VP of HR [00:06:00] or an SVP who reports the COO or maybe even the CEO but doesn't have the C title necessarily. I see this quite frequently.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: All the time. All the time. And it was definitely continuing to believe and have those conversations and to get that level. It also requires the board to, to believe and invest in you and show those stories. So, I'm grateful for, for that too.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Well, it, it's a recognition of, of what you and your team have built right. And the value that you've brought clearly. Beautiful. Love it. Okay, well let's, let's dig in 'cause we've got some, some really interesting stuff to, to discuss today. And one of the key themes that both of us are really passionate about is, is this idea of feedback and how do we help leaders, particularly new ones, pr, newly promoted, figure out how to give feedback in a way that.

It has the desired impact. What? What are your thoughts on that?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: I think as a new leader, [00:07:00] it's really hard because you come in and you think what has worked for you is the golden ticket for everyone else. And I did this, I think many, many did this, do this early in their, their days of that is what worked for me, this is how I do it. Or I love calling it super repping where they come in and they take over the conversation or they take over the task and they do it for individuals.

And the reality is that's not how most people are motivated by their manager taking over or necessarily doing it the exact way that they did. And so you really have to engage in those conversations with leaders and help them see that what was the path for them may not be the best path for everyone on their team and.

It takes a little bit of time to adapt through that, and you need to learn with that. And you've also gotta be comfortable with those new leaders making that mistake on their own, because even when you tell 'em that, they're probably not gonna believe you at [00:08:00] first.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well, yeah, and you bring up an interesting piece, which is, you know, there's the how to give feedback, right? Like the, what you say and, and how you craft the message. And then. It's also about resisting the urge to take over because you know the job so well and you've been the go-to, right. So it's that, idea of of of, you know, you've been this SME and now hey, you're in charge.

My, my husband was always getting promoted into management positions 'cause he was really good at. The individual contributor stuff. He didn't actually like management. Management and he didn't enjoy, he wanted, I don't know if it was so much that he wanted to do it his own way. He just really, you know, didn't enjoy the whole feedback piece, like telling somebody else.

He was very, he's a very humble kind of person. But you know, I think there's a whole lot going on for new leaders when they're figuring this out. So what, like what in your experience helps people start to. Grasp that, you know, saying it's my way or the highway. [00:09:00] Highway my way is the only way. Doesn't really work long term.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: I mean, some of it is you have to experience it. Others is, I encourage them to think about having real conversations and honesty as, as being kind to, to someone too. And there are ways that you can be kind without the my way or highway way. Right. I equate it to, you know, a friend is the one. The kind thing to do as a friend is the person that tells you you have spinach in your teeth.

And they don't do that because it's comfortable. They do it because they wanna help you, but then it's up to that person, like you're not removing the spinach from their teeth for them. Are you? No, like, let them do that. Let them move forward. And it's a very, like, arbitrary example, but I think it applies to even the, the bigger things there too, right?

Be honest, be kind, but also empower people to then make the next move because you'll find [00:10:00] that people are, they're more likely to follow through when they helped craft the idea themselves. And so can you allow them that space to help decide what's next.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yes, the space. I think we all need more space. You and I just before we hit record, we're talking about, you know how it's the. There's a lot going on right now for people. Everybody I talk to is feeling pretty swamped, and here you're taking an hour out to meet with me and I appreciate that. So, but creating, helping others create space so that they can be more effective as well as helping ourselves, it's it's critical in business today.

So let's just rewind on a couple things here. So you said, and I like this statement a lot, honesty is being kind. And, and now I think that there is a skill, you know, to be graceful with that honesty is, is important. But you're really getting at the intent, right? Like to letting somebody know that their skirt is tucked into their underwear.

I. You know, or that there's spinach on their teeth that, you know, you're, you would do that for [00:11:00] a friend. You would help them, you would tell them that was actually the spinach on the teeth was something in my last corporate role at Chartwell we had built it into our whole feedback model and how we would teach it and so on, right?

Like it's so visual and it, and it makes sense. And then you think it, Brene Brown and she's so, God, she's away with words, but she talks about clear, is kind, unclear. Is unkind. And I think that that, I find that with my individual coaching clients and team coaching clients, that that's a game changer, right?

When they go, oh, hang on. Because don't you find that with a lot of new leaders, they don't wanna give the feedback at all.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Well, because it feels scary, right? Like what if they get mad at me? What if they don't like me? Our brains go to these worst case scenarios of. How this is gonna go wrong for me in this, and that feels really scary and intimidating. And so instead of taking that chance that maybe this is gonna go wrong, maybe I should just avoid this whole thing.[00:12:00] 

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Oh yeah, it's the head in the sand kind of thing, right? Like, ew, it's uncomfortable. And so I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let it ride because it's uncomfortable for me, even though I'm telling myself that it would be uncomfortable for them, the person to whom I, I owe the feedback. But again, then we get into this whole idea that, you know, if we let things move along and that person's performance never improves, it only gets worse because they haven't had the gift of feedback.

And then we land in a place where they're getting let go. How is that kind? It's not, but, so that lack of clarity being unclear has led to this unkind result essentially. So another thing that, that this is bringing up for me is have you ever read Radical Candor by Kim Scott? Yeah. Yeah. So I, I taught that program for one of our big banks here in Canada for, for a little while, and I, I really, I like it.

Of itself is very simple, two by two model listeners if you're not familiar with it. And it really helps paint the picture of this idea that, you know, if you are head in the sand, I can't remember what, what the [00:13:00] terms are, but she's, she's, she's got, like, you need to care enough to challenge directly.

So if you're not. If you're not caring enough that you do this, then you're, that's the head and the sand piece. And what you're doing is creating a toxic atmosphere. This is where gossip thrives, and there's backstabbing and frustration and, and a breakdown in relationships and so on. The one thing with that model is I found that some, some more assertive.

Leaders take the challenge directly a little too literally. And they have trouble, right? They have trouble balancing it with the, with the care enough in, in actual application. That's why the clear and kind I find works really, really well. Do you have any kind of take on that yourself?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Yeah, so. When I think about the, the people on my team, or even when I'm, I'm coaching other leaders, it's also about inspiring the individual on the other side of you to be their best, right? And how you encourage them to be their [00:14:00] best selves and embrace that growth mindset. So that also has to, to go with the, the change in, in coaching and the process starts by.

Understanding where each team member stands in, whether it's the project they're taking on, or a new area, whatever it might be. And you've gotta be curious yourself. You need to start by understanding. Where they stand with that, by asking questions, by leaning in, and then also gently, but firmly pushing them to maybe step beyond their comfort zones or where they would naturally gravitate.

I, I do firmly believe in the power of pushing people into new areas and that being a catalyst for growth by challenging individuals to, to stretch their limits. It's like exercising your mu muscles. It's like exercising your muscles initially, that feels daunting, but if you're persistent and consistent, like those things that once [00:15:00] were difficult become second nature.

And so we need to really lean in, enhance our team's abilities to improve our. Our programs, our initiatives, all of it. And it leads back to being kind because it starts by listening. And if you listen and think of it as helping them, I think then it just naturally ebbs and flows as a conversation. And that word feedback can take a back seat because feedback is really what feels scary and intimidating.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yes. Okay. So, you know, I, I really, I loved how you said it starts with, with listening and it starts with questions. You've gotta ask the questions in order to hear, so to to hear what they have to say and get them thinking about, right, what they actually think and what they wanna do and what are their options and so on.

Something that that occurred to me too is, is you said, you know, like if, if you remember that you're doing this to be kind, then you're gonna say it differently. I really believe [00:16:00] in stating your intention to actually say, like, take it out of your head and put it out there. So it might be, you know, I want.

To share some feedback with you and, and I want you to know that my intention is honorable, that I am sharing this, even if it's a bit uncomfortable for us both because I'm truly invested in your growth.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Yep. I love that.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: So it, well, it just goes a long way, right? To preparing the person to be open to hearing the feedback.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Hundred percent.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yeah.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Absolutely.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: So how do you prepare leaders like to be able to, like we're talking about sort of the best parts of, of offering feedback and helping people be prepared to hear it. How do you actually prepare your leaders at live intent when somebody gets promoted? I.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: I am a big believer in role playing and in talking about scenarios. 'cause let's come back to that, [00:17:00] that what we were talking about when it comes to fear, right? And fear. A lot of times in these scenarios stems from a lack of confidence, and so how do we make ourselves feel a little more confident? We lean in and we practice, and so if we talk about what could happen, what potential scenarios could be, where they might go with the conversation, and then I even like talking about what's the worst thing that could happen in this conversation,

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Oh yeah, that's great question.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Doing that, you know, doomsday kind of planning, which sounds really scary, but, okay, let's talk about the worst thing that could happen. Alright, that's it. Suddenly it, it feels not so scary because if the worst thing that could happen, you have a plan for, you can lean into that. And we've taken that to another level at Live Intent by building a program we called Lead with Intent, where we bring.

All of our managers and leaders together, so we break them into different cohorts and we change up the cohorts [00:18:00] every couple of months. And it's not just about us telling them, but them. Telling each other and really creating these mentor mentee relationships of, we'll bring topics, you know, feedback can be the, the topic of the month and we'll bring some questions and some scenarios and maybe some frameworks to, to help, but really have them help lead and drive the conversation and coach each other because some of the things that come out in those rooms.

I also learn a lot from and bring those into other conversations with, with leaders I do have, and that that does help amplify the message because it can't always be a one-to-one conversation with a people leader and a new leader, but how do these individual support each other and then call each other after that and say, I really like that, or, I now have that scenario you talked about.

Can you help me handle this and work through it?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yeah, that's gorgeous. I, I love just the, the, you know, the way you're, you're, [00:19:00] I mean, it's honoring the way adults learn, isn't it? Right. To help them draw on their own experiences and give them space and grace to share and, and, you know, hear from others. I mean, that's partly why I. We're doing this show right, is to share experiences with our community, right?

To give people a chance to reflect and think about it. So it really sounds like by creating that forum that's that's what's been happening with the lead in with intent program. So is this something where it's facilitated by some, by yourself or somebody on your team? Always. 'cause you said you bring the topic and questions.

Could you, could you tell us a little more about that?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: We'll often help facilitate and, and drive the conversation, although the purpose and intent is for them to empower each other in it, but I find there the conversations end up being more fruitful a few weeks to have a topic or somebody driving that discussion. So we'll take that on and we'll. Hey, every performance management cycle, we'll talk about how do you talk about money, how do you deliver feedback, [00:20:00] how, what difficult conversations are you thinking about or worried about?

Here's maybe some challenging scenarios, but we'll also put out topics that are top of mind right there. Like how do you talk about world events? With your team, what if this comes up with your team? How do you adapt and pivot through that? Because managers need to be prepared for those kind of scenarios too.

And so how do we help facilitate that conversation and get it going and create a safe space to talk about it, even when they might not know the answer or have been faced with that yet. So hopefully they have something to draw upon if that does happen to them.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: It's very, it strikes me that it's very relevant too though because, you know, the world is a, it is a bit of a hot mess in, in a way. Like it's, there's a lot, it's very anxiety. Are provoking for so many of us, and, actually I might steal that topic. A Abby, I gotta tell you for, for, for my, my, the talent talks that I do regularly you know, how do you talk about world events with your team?

[00:21:00] Right? Giving people time to, to think about that because, you know, going back to earlier if, if, if it's the fear piece, until we actually articulate what's the worst that can happen. We awfulize, right? Because it's sort of floating around in our minds and it's the unknown that is most scary. So we kinda have to tease it out and sort of say, well, what actually am I freaking about?

And then you're actually able to respond to it in an articulate way, right? And feel more confident about it. So yeah, that's a great example of a topic. Going back to the feedback piece for a minute, I'm wondering, you know, I mentioned radical candor, for instance, but there's so many different models.

I have a clear and kind conversation worksheet, by the way, listeners, if you wanna reach out what are some models that you, you've used or that you do use for feedback?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: So for, for formalized feedback, we use a 360 degree feedback set up, right? Because then it's not just, here's what I think of you, but here's what the [00:22:00] perception is of you from others is as well, because we find that that can give a more holistic view and. Remove some biases as well and allow you to have a real conversation about how an individual's actions and behaviors can affect others across the organization.

So that's a, that's a simple one. And then another one I'm a fan of is the feed forward

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yes, me too.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Instead of a back versus forward, right? Where traditional feedback is, is focusing on past behaviors. Feed forward focuses on providing suggestions for future improvement because who wants to dwell on our mistakes, right?

I don't know about you, but they, they haunt me at 2:00 AM. I, I don't need necessarily somebody else talking to me about them constantly, but if I can talk about how to adapt and move forward and think positively about the future and the opportunities, maybe again, I'll be better equipped for when I'm faced with a similar situation again, I.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: [00:23:00] Yes. Beautiful. I, I'm a real fan of Feedforward as well. I think that it, it, it it goes a long way because I, I, I think I've shared this on the show before, but I remember when I first was going through my coaching education and the, and the faculty member Brian Sea, former guest on the show too, and he talked about the fact that, you know.

When you know somebody's gonna give you feedback, it's akin to, to somebody sneaking up on you in a back alley from behind. Like, we're like, am I immediately kind of on alert? And so Feed forward really gives a visual suggestion. You know, like, we're looking ahead, this is to help you move ahead. And again, you know, in my last couple roles I remember really embracing the balanced feedback model, which is really all around, we baked it right into performance management program and everything.

So it was, you know, did well do differently. I. So it could be used in a performance management scenario or in, you know, just general one-on-one and so on. [00:24:00] But I've actually had some new thinking about that, where I think I would change, it did well as one thing. Like what are we celebrating? What's going well and, and what do you wanna do next versus differently?

I think that moves us away from, you know, do differently, is another way to say, you could argue. What you didn't like, right.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Yeah,

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: weaknesses, potentially. And I, and I, that's not the intention of it, but I think it could get, you could get embroiled in that. Whereas if you talk about what do you wanna do next, that links to that feed forward, so, so what, what about this feedback?

What do you wanna do with that?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Exactly. Exactly. I like that. I like that variance of it a a lot, and I hadn't thought of it that way, but I, I really like the do next. And then how you lean into that conversation.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yeah, it could go a long way, right? To helping move people's minds, you know, from this, you know, backward looking piece and, and out of the, just the present, which is hard [00:25:00] enough to get to and into the future. Okay. So, you know, if you were to kind of encapsulate, everything that you know and what you learned about feedback.

I mean, right from, if you think about with talent acquisition where you started giving feedback to candidates who were or were not successful and what you know now about new leaders coming in and existing leaders learning over time to continuously get better. What would you boil it all down to? What's the most important thing?

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I think most important thing in that is that people just want to know the truth most of the time. Even if that truth might sting a little bit in the moment I inherently believe that most people don't wake up and say, you know what? I wanna go do a terrible job at work today. I wanna really make my boss mad.

You know what? I'm gonna go screw up this project. That's not it at all. So can we really lean into these honest, truthful conversations and [00:26:00] do it with empathy? Right? So still making sure that you're, you're thoughtful about the other person and how they're feeling and how they might interpret it. But, I found when I thought of it not only as kind, but is doing the right thing in that they often then trusted me more 'cause they knew I would give them the truth. It just gave me more confidence to continue to do that over and over again. And I would even get my own feedback saying, I'm calling you 'cause I know you're gonna tell me the truth.

And that to me as a leader is so meaningful. Okay, that's a big form of trust.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: It is because you know, as much as the truth makes us squirm, sometimes it can be really hard to take, right? You know, this idea that. People do want to know the truth. It, it builds trust. Right. I think we hold back and I've seen leaders, they don't, I can't, I can't possibly 'cause they, we fear it will damage the relationship [00:27:00] and it's usually the opposite.

As long as there's been care taken to deliver that message in a clear and kind way with empathy. I, I really appreciate that you've brought empathy into the conversation. 'cause that's what it's about. I care enough, I. Right to give you this, this input.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Absolutely.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about feedback and giving us a bit of a window into your lead with Intent program.

It sounds like you're doing amazing work there and I really, really appreciate your time today.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate2: Thank you. This was so much fun. I really, really enjoyed it.

Abby Hamilton GMT20240213-204011_Recording_separate1: Me too. Thanks so much, Abby.

[00:28:00]