The Why in Leadership Competencies with Sara Lockhart

“If you don't share those consistent expectations [with leaders], then you can't expect a consistent employee experience, right?”
-Sara Lockhart

In today's evolving business landscape, how is your organization prioritizing leadership development? Are your leaders equipped with the core competencies needed to navigate modern challenges, or are you grappling with shifting expectations? In today's episode, my guest and I explore the critical role of human-centric leadership in driving organizational success.

My guest is Sara Lockhart. Sara leads Softchoice's Talent Acquisition, Corporate & Sales Onboarding, Learning, Development & Talent Management, and Diversity, Equity & Inclusion. She is responsible for driving a highly engaged, inclusive culture through talent attraction, employee engagement & retention practices.  

Sara's diverse and progressive leadership experience spans more than 25 years across organizations, including CIBC, Bell Canada and Softchoice, allowing her to inspire others, impart knowledge and lead impactful organizational change.  

She is an active member of our Softchoice Employee Resource Community as a former Leading Women Co-Chair and current Orange Pride Executive Sponsor.  

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• How Softchoice's 350 leaders are being equipped with essential leadership competencies to meet the demands of a post-pandemic world
• Insights into how to move leaders beyond theory and into real-world application
• Real-life experiences of moving laterally and how this can lead to significant growth and eventual promotions

Links

• Sara Lockhart on Linkedin

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Transcript

Speaker: [00:00:00] In today's evolving business landscape, how is your organization prioritizing leadership development? Are your leaders equipped with the core competencies needed to navigate modern challenges, or are you grappling with [00:01:00] shifting expectations? I. In today's episode, my guest and I explore the critical role of human-centric leadership in driving organizational success.

My guest is Sarah Lockhart. Sarah is Vice President of People and Cultures at Softchoice. She leads talent acquisition, corporate and sales onboarding, learning development, and talent management, as well as de and I. Sarah's diverse and progressive leadership experience spans more than 25 years across organizations that include CIBC, bell Canada and Softchoice.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover how soft choices 350 leaders are being equipped with essential leadership competencies to meet the demands of a post pandemic world. Additionally, insights into how to move leaders beyond theory and into real world application. And finally, real life experiences of moving laterally and how this can lead to significant growth and eventual promotions.

Thank [00:02:00] you so much for listening. Enjoy.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell.

Today I am joined by Sarah Lockhart. Sarah is the Vice President of People and Culture at Soft Choice. Welcome to the show, Sarah.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: My pleasure. Well, let's kick it off. I'd love for you to share a little bit about your beautiful career to date. How did you get here?

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Well, I got here, I got here by accident. And I've got, you know, I would say 25 plus years in the human resources field. We call it people and culture at Softchoice. And I started my career more than 25 years ago at, at CIBC, one of our largest Canadian financial institutions. I was fresh outta school and like many although I.

Didn't go to school to be a quote unquote banker. Like many, when you're coming outta school, you've gotta pay those student loans and you [00:03:00] jump into opportunities that are presented to you. So off I went to CIBC in an kind of entry level sales position and I was exposed right away to corporate learning and development.

I had no idea that this existed and I was immediately in love. I fell in love with the idea that this big, massive organization had an entire team dedicated to. The employee experience. And so I ate that up. Obviously I was there to learn how to sell and learn everything about banking, but I was all the while kind of laser focused on like, this is my sweet spot, this is where I'm meant to be.

And so I had a learning background from my university education and I could easily see that there was this opportunity inside of a big corporation to play in the learning space. And so. That kind of kick started my love affair with learning and [00:04:00] development and then the offshoot to be able to have a really rich career in human resources.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Beautiful. So, so first of all I just for listeners, it turns out we both share a bit of history with CIBC. I was there as part of the CIBC group of companies way, way back after I left teaching. So we both trained as teachers. I'm just curious, what, what age group were you training to teach?

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: kindergarten. So yeah, so I went to school to be a kindergarten teacher for children with developmental disabilities. So totally different than obviously what I was, what I ended up doing and what I do today. But.

Surprisingly enough, if you're in the space of education, as you know, Lisa, when you wanna serve and impart knowledge, whether that's for young people in, in the school system or in the, you know, any age incorporations, there's lots of similarities and lots of things that you do the same.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: And [00:05:00] it's interesting that you say that because you know, you said just a, a few moments ago with, with, with a great deal of certainty. Like I had a background in learning and education, I could see how it would, you didn't say it like exactly like this. I could see how it would translate here.

Whereas, you know, I've shared previously on, on other episodes that I didn't necessarily see the direct correlation. So I, I, I was a middle school French immersion teacher and came out and thought, who's gonna want me? And I just fell in by accident into, into CIBC and was a bilingual CSR and then became a leader within the first six weeks.

And, and just, you know, then it sort of, it took off from there, but it wasn't clear to me. So I, I acknowledge that you, you were able to see that I had to have somebody tap me on the shoulder and point out that correlation. I think I was just so, I don't know. Awash in grief and, and disappointment that I was giving up on something, right.

That I'd always targeted as my core career.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Yeah, and you know what? I love sharing with other people who are, you know, formally teach in the [00:06:00] education system, that there's also a life outside of that if they so choose to explore it, having lived it and vice versa. Like there are people that spend a ton of years in the corporate space and then decide that they wanna move into the, into the school system.

So I, I do think it is about transferable skills. I saw some of that early days. Through exposure. And certainly through my career there have been moments where I've thought where, where do I go now? I only know one thing. So, you know, I think that that's pretty natural for us when we get really good at something.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And there are a lot of, transferable skills that come into play, right. If you think about managing a classroom and, and the organizational skills, the empathy, the caring, the serving mindset, this is a lot of overlap. So tell us about what you do now today at Softchoice.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Yeah. I think I spent 19 and a half years with CIBC, so I, so [00:07:00] I'll, I'll just ground us on kind of my journey to soft choice. I had a really rich career at CIBC and, and grew my capability through learning and development and through leadership took a leap of faith and jumped into bell Canada.

I. my 19 and a half years and stayed almost three years at Bell Canada. And so that leaves me now at Softchoice where I've been for the last four and a half years and, and really where, what, what feels like home for me. And so just by way of that journey, I went from finance to telcal to technology.

So when we talk about transferable skills, I certainly needed to leverage and lean on those transferable skills going to. Through those various industries and at Softchoice if you're unfamiliar with Softchoice, we are a software focused IT provider, so full solutions provider, and we work with organizations to obviously ensure they are successful.

And my role more specifically at Softchoice [00:08:00] is the VP of people and culture, and I lead a team that's half of the HR function, give or take. My team is made up of talent leaders who are focused on quote unquote learning and development. Leadership development day-to-day onboarding and up training and enablement.

I have a team of talent advisors who are recruiting our talent and working on the employee experience, bringing people in the door, sourcing partners to ensure we have. The pipeline to bring the talent in that we need. I have a team of individuals who are focused on talent management, so career development succession planning and overarching development in, in your, in your lifecycle, in your journey at Softchoice.

And then last, but certainly not least, I have a team that is responsible for diversity, equity, and inclusion. So our role as it might sound, is to ensure that we have the most inclusive workplace for [00:09:00] everyone. That comes to soft choice. So I have a big team and I, and I love it that way, and I feel really privileged to be able to lead this group of professionals that are solely focused on the employee experience 

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Beautiful. It really, it sounds so similar to my portfolio in my last role, right? Where the, we, there were two of us, and so I had that one half the employee experience piece, the same part of the portfolio, and she had more the HR operations and, and labor relations. So, and yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a good way to split it for, for organizations I think many times.

So, okay. So at Softchoice. What would you say is kind of like the biggest focus for you this upcoming year? We're recording right now at the beginning of February, 2024. What's, what's on your mind? What's in front of you and your team?

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Yeah. The, the question is, is really well timed because we've just come off the heels of. January, which is kind of the start of our fiscal year certainly, and which, where we kick [00:10:00] everything off and get everybody in the right mindset for the year ahead. And so my team is focused on a, a number of things.

We, we, you know, we have a bunch of leavers that we are always pulling, but leadership development is a critical enabler for us in 2024. We have about 350 leaders at Softchoice at various levels. And we have done a really good job over the last four years that I've been there on equipping leaders with tools and skills to coach to lead people to inspire.

We've kind of missed the mark on giving them that recipe card, so we fed them the ingredients, but maybe missed the mark on the recipe card on what? What does it actually mean to be a leader? What's expected of me as a leader at Softchoice, regardless of what [00:11:00] level I am or who I lead, but if I'm going to be responsible for people.

What is expected of me. And so in 2024, we are focused on arming our leaders with some core competencies around leadership, like Big L leadership. If you lead, this is what's expected of all of us. And as you might imagine, that's a blend of leading the whole person. And the business. It's the balance of what people need and what the organization needs because we obviously need to focus on both to be successful.

And so Lisa, it's about giving people training. It's about obviously training our leaders, but training is just, it's one facet of the journey. It's about modeling, it's about holding people accountable and measuring them. It's about testing less testing. It's about helping our leaders understand how to take those leadership expectations or [00:12:00] attributes and actually apply them day to day with their people and.

You know what? You might be wondering, why are you focusing on this so much? And I think coming out of the pandemic, although that might seem like a long time ago, that that was a game changer for leadership. It turned the leadership on its head where you once led the person and, and the business, the pandemic opened up the doors to all of the person, the people's home life, the, the, that work life balance that we always talk about.

Burnout and challenges with mental health that maybe leaders didn't have to think about before, didn't have to manage before. And so the landscape changed for leaders and the expectation of employees for that human-centric leader became very apparent. But we didn't arm our leaders to be all the things,

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Yes. So, so, so you started out like you've been really focused on the [00:13:00] motivation inspiration piece is what I heard, and now you wanna pull it together in a and, and I find the language interesting in. To a recipe card. So it's more about application on the job. So how are you painting that picture and arming people with those skills like you, you know, I think for listeners, it would be really interesting to understand, you know, if you're willing to share and pull back the curtain a little bit about like, just what's the framework, what's, what's involved here.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Yeah, that's a great question. It, I'll tell you, we started with we've just come off the heels of a, of an annual conference where we brought many of our leaders together and we started talking about purpose. So why are you a leader? What, what's in it for you? What did, what have you signed up for and why?

Because if you can't articulate your why. You're not going to be successful in this role. This is a massive responsibility. You don't lead for a paycheck. You're responsible for the lives and development. [00:14:00] And success of of human beings. So there's more to it than a, we all like money. We all want money, but it's not just about money.

When you're a leader, you don't shut it off. At the end of the day, you bring home with you all of the things that come at you from the teams and people that you lead. Certainly I do.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Yeah, ab absolutely. Yeah. And this, what's your why? I mean, it's very Simon Sinek of you, but you know, like, it, it really, it is a place where. You know, my last organization where we started, you know, that's a decade ago or whenever that came out and really helped get clear on, on the mission, the overarching mission that people could really get behind.

So I appreciate where you're coming from. So, so when you got people thinking about this, why are you a leader? How, how did you give them the space to, to be thinking through that? Because it's a, it's a powerful question. It's not just a, oh, I have it on the tip of my tongue. If people have never thought about it before.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Yeah, we actually workshop shopped this 

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Ah, okay. 

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: brought our leaders together in [00:15:00] person and we had a chance to go through individually and start to focus on. What brings you joy? Like why, why do you do this? Right. So when I think about myself, I, I think about servitude leadership. I think about, I feel privileged to be in a position where I'm responsible for.

Human beings for the people on my team. And so we started to really hone in on the things that bring you joy in this role. And then we worked among partners and teams to understand and, and kind of poke holes. Like, why did you choose the word serve? What does that mean to you? And how does that show up in your day to day?

And we, we partnered people with leaders they don't work with every day because it's easy if we know each other, Lisa, for me to say, yeah, that really sounds like you, Sarah. That sounds like you sound like it. You're a servitude leader, but if you don't know me, you're gonna ask me why. But why is that important to you and why is that something that brings you joy?

And so through those discussions, we got to really narrow [00:16:00] down. I. That purpose statement, if you will, like that one, two liner that everybody walks away with that really resonates for them and it's not perfect. This is a work in progress, right? Like we weren't, we're not signing in blood, we're, we're talking about, we're trying to get to the heart of.

Of what I value in leadership. And we've started sharing that across our organization with our teams and with the other leaders. And, and I'll tell you through the exercise, not only did I determine for myself what's important to me as a leader, but I got to know some of my colleagues far better than I ever knew them before, understanding what, why they're in the roles that they're in.

And so there's a lot of value in that sharing.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Oh my gosh. Yet, like I remember, you know, doing core competency development and work shopping that my last couple of organizations and just the, the power of coming together. Anytime you can get people in a room, ideally in person to connect and make meaning of something that's important that they have in common, I really [00:17:00] think it is a bonding mo moment really does wonders for the, for the trust.

On a team. So, okay, so you, you, you got clear on this purpose, started to share out the purpose statement, what's, what's next?

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: The next thing that we're layering on, and we're in the midst of it now, is the leadership attributes. So we grounded ourself after a number of conversations, kind of design thinking sessions. We've grounded ourselves on five leadership attributes that we believe, and you might call them competencies, you might call them expectations.

It, it doesn't really matter. But the idea is that. Every leader in our organization is responsible for these five things. So if you think about leadership, you think about being a winning coach, as an example, or a culture champion. And so it's these five responsibilities of every single leader at every single level.

So there's a common [00:18:00] narrative when you are joining Softchoice around what leadership is, and we didn't have that before. I think everybody comes from different walks of life and different backgrounds, and we all bring to the table, you know, the model that we may have grown up with or the leadership competencies that that really land with us.

But we didn't have our own vernacular, our own narrative that we all. Be agree and be grounded around or or centered around. And so that landed so well with our leaders and everybody was able to understand and get behind our attributes. And also we workshopped, how do you bring this to life? So here are the five attributes.

Now, what does that look like every day when you're with your team and with your people? And so by layering on the practical application. Then obviously resonates with people. 'cause we all do different jobs, we all need different functions. So it's, you might be thinking it's a one size fits all and although we're saying [00:19:00] if you're a leader, it is, but how you apply that day to day looks very different.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Right. Okay. Okay. So, so a lot of work shopping, a lot of involving of people you know, grassroots to really get people coalesced almost around, around a, a particular direction. I. I'm curious, how did you know in the first place that this was the right direction? Because you just said that it landed really well, it seemed to resonate.

How did you even kind of know to point in this direction? What, what was the what? What were the inputs that that gave you that Intel? I.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: So there's a large team. My, my learning and development team is made up of really talented individuals where we are bringing in. Research and insights, so lots of Googling, lots of white papers. What do other people do? Lots of focus groups internally with members of our leadership community at all levels to kind of test the waters.

How does this sound, how does this feel? We have a very [00:20:00] active CEO who's invested and, and has great opinions in this space, so workshopping directly with him and our executive team to get their perspective. We've got an amazing listening vehicles surveys where we could pull verbatims on what our people are saying they need and want out of their leaders.

And so when I say there were a number of iterations, I mean there were a number of iterations. And although that that can be like a, a lengthy process, it, it ended up resulting in the very best output. And so I'm in the moment, it may have felt a bit much, but I'm grateful for that version 10 and version 11.

So we could get to a place and you know, I would say, listen, we're working through it. We just kicked this off in January. It landed. Well, we're seeing that it resonates, but if in six months we're finding that we need to edit or tweak. Everything is movable. And [00:21:00] everything is open to feedback. And so, although we've had a lot of people involved in the process to ensure the right buy-in, you gotta test things and see how they translate in day to day 

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Oh, absolutely. I, I think that helps with overall adoption, right? And transformation. It's, it's, you know, building in time to test, to pilot, to check, to get feedback and embrace that iteration, right? You know, 11, 12, so too many may not necessarily, so if you think about, like you just had said, you know, maybe in six months if we need to tweak, we need to flex.

We can, at the outset though, what. What is your expectation? Like what is the desired outcome? What will be different for employees, not for leaders as a result of this, this, this development of leaders? What's gonna be different for the employees?

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: I love that question because when we were going through. This, the design cycles to get to where we are. It was [00:22:00] all about the, the employee, like how, how will this land, how is the employee going to feel? What is the employee experience? And I think the one thing that that comes to mind for me right out of the gate is who, whoever I work for at Soft Choice, I can guarantee that I am going to have a leader who is responsible.

For these five attributes who models and demonstrates these five attributes. And so you often hear when you move around an organization that the experience is vastly different from one leader to the next. And although that's okay because we're, we are all different and we lead D differently, and that's how people learn.

There should be some consistency inside an organization from one. Experience to the next, and this is going to allow for that and provide for that, and we are gonna hold our leaders accountable. So [00:23:00] that the employees do have a similar experience, a positive experience from one coach to the next, from one leader to the next that they know.

They know they're going to have coaching and development and a leader who invests in them, and a leader who invests in the culture and the business. And so if you don't share that across, it's only 350 leaders at soft joice. But in some organizations it might be. You know, triple that, whatever the number is, if you don't share that consistent those consistent expectations, then you can't expect a consistent employee experience.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Well, and I think, you know, I've, I've seen the power of, of helping employees understand what they can and should expect from their leaders because it helps the leaders. Be accountable. 'cause we can't really hold them accountable. We can create structures to help them with that. So if they're clear on expectations and so are the people who are looking to them.

You know, one example is [00:24:00] back, way back putting in situational leadership throughout a whole organization. And then we did situational self-leadership for employees so that this, this helped all parties have a common language and a common set of expectations of each other. It went a long way.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Sure.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: To, to, you know, to creating better trust, better performance, better relationships.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Yeah. And you just called out, like you've gotta communicate, right? So we're in the throes of now making sure that our entire organization understands that we're investing in leadership development, and that we ha we are holding our leaders to these expectations. It's not a secret, it's not behind closed doors.

We're really transparent across our entire community of what we're working on. that way we hold each other accountable. We, we, we have a beautiful culture where people have the opportunity to coach up and hold their leaders accountable. And if you don't communicate to them, then they're not gonna be able to do that.

So that's kind of where we're at in the [00:25:00] journey and blowing out that scorecard for, okay, how are we gonna test ourselves and do the checks and balances? But it is a journey. We're not changing behavior overnight. In an, you know, we, we do have some leaders that probably through that exercise have identified, I dunno what my why is, I dunno why I lead, or I've gotta really unpack what's important to me and can I live up to these five expectations and did I sign up to do what's expected of me?

And so, and that's okay. That's normal. And so this is a bit of a journey that we're all going to go on, but it's a necessary one and I'm really excited about it because we haven't had it. We haven't had it this clear before.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well, it sounds like a really exciting opportunity to really elevate the practice of leadership. You know, it's not like it was bad. It really sounds like it's just, it's that next level versus, you know. Fixing anything. It's, it's, it's a natural state in the evolution. So, beautiful. It's great to hear more about that.

Well, so we're, [00:26:00] I'm noticing the time and we're starting to come near the end, so I do have another question for you. This is a little more broad, but connected, which is, you know, if you think about. Like this case in point here with this, the evolution of the leadership development approach at Softchoice, but if you think about over the course of your career through CIBC and the Bells and and so on, what would you say has been the most important lesson learned?

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Oh, I have so many lessons. I think one of the things that I learned through my, my journey was you know, early on in my career I was kind of climbing this ladder, chasing the the next, the next. Rung in the ladder or the next title. And that was really important to me and kind of defined, defined my worth, but it was, I was laser focused on the next step.

And I, I had a very successful career at CIBC and I left at, at, in a senior [00:27:00] leadership role and found myself moving laterally, which is really healthy. I move laterally to Bell Canada, my title. Was at at CIBC was senior director. I went to a director at Bell Canada. But I'll tell you, my scope and impact and influence at Bell Canada was larger than my scope and influence in my previous role at CIBC.

So right outta the gate, I learned. Hmm. There's something about this title game that a lot of us are chasing that probably I shouldn't pay as close attention to, or I should at least understand the motivation. And so for me, I learned through that transition that it's less about the title and more about the impact, the scope of work and moving organizations allowed me to broaden my scope.

The title may have stayed the same, or may may have been different, but what I was working on was giving me so much more wealth and, experience [00:28:00] than I had had previously. And then when I left be Canada and moved to Softchoice again, I moved laterally, laterally. So I spent a decade moving laterally between three organizations to then move up.

Again, it was about moving into a new organization with a, in a completely different industry. So learning a new skill, broadening my expertise, and expanding my scope of influence before I moved into various promotable roles. And so I, when I speak to young people and I have my own young people in my own home.

I do talk to them about not getting hung, hung up on title and not getting hung up on always having to go to the next level, but looking for an opportunity, whether that is up or across, to build capability and skill and to expand scope because that's where the value comes from and the risks that you [00:29:00] take through doing that, although they seem scary they enrich and they create growth.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Well they do. And you know, even just the picture you painted of, you know, moving laterally for almost a decade and then you moved up, you know, if that is really what you, you want, it's still possible. I remember it, it, it takes a leap of faith. I remember doing the same taking. A a essentially a lateral move in terms of, you know, money, title, et cetera, is pretty equivalent after, you know, 10 years at one organization and.

Yet in the new organization. I only spent a year there, but the breadth was so huge and I learned so much. And coming out of that, moved into the VP role, right. And wasn't even looking for it. But it just happened because there were just so much growth. And then the, you know, the opportunity presented itself.

But I do think that, you know, I've had the, the pleasure to coach some, some quite young people recently, either moving into grad school or just coming out of a, an undergrad and so on, and looking to get into the career and wanting to be [00:30:00] very thoughtful and inter intentional about it. It's not really the core area of my practice, but I, it is an area I, I work in and I do enjoy it and, you know.

I noticed that from what they're telling me, there's a lot of competition people expecting to just, you know, have this upward trajectory, not necessarily the people I'm working with, because they're taking a different tack, right? They're trying to understand first and then position themselves and learn as they go along.

But I think that's typical of each new generation coming out. So it's a bit of a, a hard lesson, you know? And I think it's worthwhile to be reminded of.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Listen, we all want growth, right? But we just need to remember that growth doesn't mean up. It, it doesn't always mean up, and it certainly doesn't always. Mean a title, growth is about it. It's ongoing learning for me, it's lifelong learning. It is about taking risks and embarking on new change that gives you that exposure and that influ ability to [00:31:00] influence and ha have great impact and.

And you do have imposter syndrome moments where you're like, you know, I've spent 20, almost 20 years in finance. How can I, how, what am I going to do elsewhere? But you realize, again, I go back to transferable skills, just how really critical they are. And if you're good in one organization, bring that goodness to another organization or another discipline.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: And, and continue to evolve. Right. Just like your leadership development program. Right. It's staying nimble. It's staying open to not knowing and, and, and, and to new opportunities. So. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for, for joining me today and. Talking about your experiences and, and giving us a bit of a peek into to what you're working on.

I really appreciate it.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate2: No, it's been really fun. Thanks for having me.

Sara Lockhart GMT20240206-201530_Recording_separate1: Thank you. [00:32:00]