Resilient Leadership with Catherine Hebert

“Sometimes I do explain and talk about our function as a first responder. Sometimes we see, we're exposed to really tragic personal stories. We witness, you know, some particularly traumatic incidents.”
- Catherine Hebert

What life experiences have shaped your approach to how you lead? How would you describe yourself as a leader?  Today’s guest shares her journey to becoming a highly-resilient woman and leader through broad experience, traumatic loss and deep learning.

My guest is Catherine Hebert. Catherine Hébert is a dynamic, creative, strategic leader, as well as a growth facilitator. In June 2021, Catherine assumed the pivotal role of Chief Talent Officer with InterRent, leveraging over 25 years of talent management experience. Throughout her professional journey, Catherine has demonstrated her passion for driving organizational excellence, fostering cultures of continuous growth, and her commitment to elevating the human capital agenda in diverse industries and roles on a global scale.

Catherine believes in looking for the “beautiful” side of collateral damage; collateral beauty and learnings from life which have been the driving force of her professional and personal life.

Originally from Saguenay, Quebec she has since settled with her family in a rural community west of Ottawa, Ontario. Catherine holds a Bilingual BA in Sociology from York University’s Glendon College, complemented by further studies in Human Resources Management, Change Management, and Coaching. 

Catherine's multifaceted background, coupled with her passion for organizational development and talent management, continues to fuel her mission of fostering growth and resilience in individuals and teams alike.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• An analogy about HR and first responders
• A very personal case for going to coaching school even if you don’t want to ultimately BE a coach 
• The bittersweet collateral beauty of things not turning out the way you had envisioned

Links

• Catherine Hebert on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-hebert-06061b20/ 

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Transcript

What life experiences have shaped your approach to how you lead? How would you describe yourself as a leader? Today's guest shares her journey to becoming a highly resilient woman and leader through broad experience, traumatic loss, and deep learning. My guest is Katrin Abe Katrin is the Chief Talent Officer with Inter Rent, a Canadian REIT or Real Estate Investment Trust.

Kat believes in looking for the beautiful side of collateral damage, collateral, beauty, and learnings from life, which have been the driving force of her professional and personal life. Originally from Sne Quebec. She now lives in a rural community west of Ottawa, Ontario. Catherine holds a bilingual BA in sociology from York University, complimented by further studies in HR management, change management and coaching.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover an analogy about HR and first responders. A very personal case for going to coaching school, even if you don't want to ultimately be a coach. And the bittersweet collateral beauty of things not turning out the way you had envisioned. Kat is a dear friend of mine and I really, really enjoyed this episode.

You will too. 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I am joined by a friend and colleague, Katlan Abe Katlan, or Kat is the Chief Talent Officer at Inter Rent. Welcome to the show, cat.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Oh, well thank you so much, Lisa. I'm really excited to be with you today.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: I am excited to have you here. So let's start by having you share a little about your career journey. 'cause you've had a really, really interesting path.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Thank you so much, Lisa. I mean, I, I really chose HR as a profession. I think too often I hear from people around me, oh, I fell into hr. But for me it was a drive. This is what I wanted. I graduated from sociology. I had a professor at the time in sociology at work who told me, okay, you are gonna go into hr?

And I said, yes, sir. And. I just went into it 'cause that's what it was going to be for me. And so I chose and, and I pursued as soon as I graduated. This is the kind of role I wanted to do, and I, and I happened right away to be able to find a job, an HR assistant and a great company and they really formed me very well.

And I just, I just knew that was part of who I am. It's just part of what I love and, and it really is for me about understanding humans at a deeper level, understanding the interconnectivity of people. Through work and the value of all that. And that's just been what's driving me ever since. You know, more recently, yes, I've come here at Into Rent and I've been here since June.

Before that I was and had the great opportunity to work in international development and that was very fulfilling and incredibly educational for me as well. And I also worked in large corporation. But in between I had the, a moment where I decided to go into consulting. And that was a, a really big, big career moment for me to say, okay, I'm gonna step out of the regular relationship employer employee and try out this consulting and, and build a bit of a consulting work 

company. 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well that, I think that's when you and I met you were doing consulting at that time when I had just started myself, so, okay. So, HR is for you. Part of who you are as a person. I love how you say that. So tell us a little bit about your team and inter, inter rent itself and what and what you do there to support the people of inter.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Yeah. I mean, intern was such a great opportunity for me, one that I just could not pass. You know, the moment in your career where you say, okay, I can actually leave a legacy here, and it, it was a very important time in my life for me to, To, to step back into this and step into an organization that was ready for someone like me because they had made the decision to really create a function from scratch.

And that's how I've always kind of seen myself as a builder, right? I, I transform, I love to create new, and this was a really great opportunity to be able to combine that baggage of experience that I accumulated and meet in intern where it was at. Three years ago. So it, it, it was really fantastic just creating the function from scratch, putting together the the more transactional piece of hr along with the more strategic piece of hr, bringing it together into a really strong talent team and just focusing on delivering the vision and the mission of this organization.

What I found really, really attractive too at Interen when I came in and when I had the conversations at first, it really was because our value, our values aligned and, you know, this is a people business too easily. People will think of a company like as, oh, it's building it's infrastructure, it's a read.

But we are so much more than that. We're really about people. We're about. Offering the most basic needs, which is offering homes for people, and we're into multi residentials, multiple locations in Canada. And, and that's really the heart of the organization is, is having leaders who are here who believe in the same thing.

And so creating the function, creating all the programs we've been able to create up until now has been, yes, incredibly amount of work, but at the same time incredibly rewarding and in a way easy because it's so well supported who, people who for. People who were hungry for this and ready for it. So it really was the perfect time.

So very excited about that. You also asked me, you know, talk to me about my team. And my team is also really fantastic because they really are people who. I've been able to bring in, who have the same passion, a passion for their personal growth, a passion to build something a passion to leave their name behind what they're building as well.

So we are very much aligned as far as that concern, while we are dramatically different as human beings and personality and, and what we bring to the table. So it's really fantastic. And yeah, I'm very proud of my

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yeah, so there's so, so much goodness in here too. you know, first of all, what I'm really hearing, you love to build and you hired people who enjoy building as well. I personally am a builder. You know, when I was trying to figure out if I wanted to go out on my own, I remember that was a, a big aha. When I sort of thought about what do I love, like what have I loved about all my different jobs?

And it was, it was the fresh start, the clean slate, and just, ah, okay, there's all sorts of ambiguity and how do we, how do we make this into something out of nothing? So with your, your team, so they're dramatically different as humans. How, how did you know, was that by design or, or by happy accident?

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I could be particularly strategic, definitely by design. You got me. Right. I mean, I think that's the, that's what's really important as a leader is staying humble, looking yourself in the mirror and say, there I have shadow sides. There are areas that. I don't cover, I don't know, I don't see in the same way.

So really thinking about each person, especially the people that I have on the leadership with me and thinking about them for who they are at their core what, you know, sure. What are their comfort zones? Who are they, either personality wise or things like that. And how do they compliment me and how do they, how do we compliment each other?

While really creating an environment where there's a lot of respect. And that's really important. So Absolutely. By design. But needless to say, it's it makes for a very interesting conversation sometimes. 'cause we don't always agree. That's for sure. And that's what we want, right? That's where innovation comes out.

It comes out from when we can feel comfortable to challenge each other and, and look at things with a very different lens.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: I think it's really how you get to the best thinking. Right? I didn't always see it that way too. I remember very early in my career wanting it to be my way. and you know, learning that, you know, we all have blinders in some, some degree. You know, there's, there's certain, we see things a certain way.

How the world looks from my chair is different from

how it looks from your chair. Yeah. Okay. Well, so, so strategically you built your team up and now you've been building out this function and, you know, what are some, some of the, you know, I don't know, successes that you're most proud of? It's almost a year now.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I am you're catching me in a moment. I'm actually really proud of a lot of stuff right now. 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: how to pick, how to 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: yeah, yeah, yeah. I just talked about how it's important to stay humble, so let me stay humble for a second. when I first went through the interview, it was really, really important for our CEO.

His name is Brad Tze, and one of the key message he keep telling me and asking me during the interview was about leadership development, the importance of building leaders, the importance of really supporting leaders in the organization. How do you grow, how do you align them? How do you help them evolve?

And that's been a really big driver for me right from the beginning right. You know, the, the end of 2021 is when I created this it's called the Billing Leader Program with a series of core modules where basically every leader in the organization have to go through. And really, when you think about the topic, they're not. You know, they're not changing the world. There are very basic topics that we address in each of these different sessions. We've had multiple cohorts. Now I think we're about to start our eighth cohorts. again, we we're not. Introducing concepts that are completely out of the blue and completely different.

They're all topic of conversations and that's what we really talk about. The importance of building leaders is about having real conversation. It's about having learning circles where everybody learns from each other and staying in that humble learning mode to make sure that you are sharing and you're taken away what's being shared.

So again, the topics are not that. vu,

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: What, what's an example? What's an example of a topic right?

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: recruiting, Performance management. We talk about conflict. We talk about building resilience. We introduce through each core modules different topic under the idea umbrella. So whether it's, you know, some fundamental concepts in DEI.

We introduce, you know, addressing your biases, microaggression really all the concept around diversity. So when you look at the topics that are being addressed, they're normal and we should all have, and we should all look through them. What makes this program really different is encouraging people to.

Stay in that learning mode. So, you know, being childlike and open to what's coming to you. So yes, we learn a lot through play. Some games are silly, but it just creates that environment of just being open to what's coming for you, right? Like a child, a childlike mind to receive something new. And it's also about having uncomfortable conversation.

Being comfortable, having uncomfortable conversation and checking each other and being supportive for each other. And that really is what is making what we are seeing and what we're discussing, making it stick. It's because it's, it gets deeper to the ent, authentic self and having those real uncomfortable conversations.

But

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yeah, so, so, so listeners, you may be picking up some coach, coach-like language here coming from Kat, and, and we're gonna d dive into this a bit later, but that's actually how we met was in coaching school. And, and this is really, I think, you know, what you're describing around what differentiates this program is, is that it's a very much an active.

Reflective learning process. It's not a, Hey, let's throw this at the wall, or throw some content at people and hope that they retain it or assume that they'll retain it. This is about people making meaning of the content and figuring out what, what is relevant in their own world. So I really, I really appreciate that approach that.

That you shared. So, you know, that kind of, I think we're getting a sense of the answer to this question, but I'd love to understand, you know, how do you describe who you are as an HR and talent leader?

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: I describe myself as being silly, but that's not where

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Well, that could, you could do that.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: I'm proud of it. But we'll move on from that. I think you know, sometimes what I talk about is. What, what's coming up for me, especially throughout the pandemic and coming out of the pandemic and just trying to reform ourselves as as HR professional. Sometimes I do feel like, and not to minimize first responders and the pressure that they're under, but sometimes I do explain and, and talk about our function as a first responder.

Sometimes we see we're exposed to really tragic personal stories. We witness. Some particularly traumatic incidents. We are, you know, at times we, we have to have very difficult conversations, very crucial conversations, ones that are impacting people's life greatly, and obviously, you know, taking someone's job away as you're talking about exiting an organization, managing performance.

But yeah, we, we do, you know, benefit administration, we expose to a lot of personal things that people. Will go through and we have to maintain the professionalism. We have to separate ourselves sometime as well, like being able to smile when you're holding a very tragic information in your heart. But you have to be, you know, you have to keep going.

And, and I think it is really important that we. Sure. Again, I don't wanna minimize what the true first responder go through, but I don't think we realize enough what we go through and I don't think we take care of ourselves enough considering what we go through and you know, we'll make joke, oh, it's part of the job.

Oh, that's my job. Oh, that's how it is. But we shouldn't be as dismissive. I think it's important that we, we do consider what we go through and take care of ourselves. Mm-Hmm.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: of that is, is a, I think you're absolutely correct that there is a, I see HR intelligence. People self diminishing, like sort of 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Mm-Hmm 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: know, like downplaying their importance or the impact of these very personal things that they bear witness to on them. And I think that's probably because historically, you know, hr, you know, there's the HR jokes, you know, there, HR here, like, like I've seen people, you know.

Say an off color comment, even if I'm facilitating, you know, as an external facilitator, be like, oh God is HR here? I just said, you know, silly things like this. So they see, they see you as the police or the wrist slapper or the party planner, and yet. You know, you're the empathy givers and the voice of reason in a time of crisis and trauma and emotion more often than many other leaders in other functions.

So I you raise a great point. You know, it's interesting. One of my best friends, her son our sons are one day apart. They're both turning 18 next week, which is crazy to me. And you and. Is going to he's enrolled in paramedic school, so he wants to be, it's like he has a calling, he wants to be a first responder.

and it's interesting 'cause I think, you know, gee, so what would be calling him that called you as somebody you chose hr. What do you think? I don't know. Are there any similarities here? I'm just, I, I'm just thinking out loud here.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very interesting. I think. Hmm. I do wonder, I think, I think there's definitely drivers that we're exposed to in very early life that create our path and our journey and where we wanna go to. I mean, for me, for sure, I think I. Being exposed to many different people at a really young age, whether it's through how I was raised being a bit of a, of a different bird sometimes in the, you know, the small community where I was raised.

I come from North Quebec and, and Very early at 12 years old, my parents sent me to BC and an exchange student to learn English. So before the age of 12, I didn't speak a word of English, so it just kind of made me almost sometimes kind of watch life from a, apart from afar, watch the games that people play.

Maybe some self-protection through that as well. And, and it's, you know, then you ex you, you kind of put all this together. You know, my father was quite a philosopher, and so I was exposed to, you know, different minds, different thoughts, different school of thoughts, politics, things like that. Also, at a very young age so going into sociology, studying the work of the great sociologist being exposed to this professor who's also a, a fairly big name.

That was really exciting for me. It felt like everything was coming together and really kind of gave me a purpose as soon as I got into the profession, it just keeps reinforcing that. Right. And I have these little nuggets of, Ooh, the world is great. Ooh, there's this, there's that. And, and just kind of walking me through that.

But just, I just wanna go back to one of the comment that you made about your, you know, your friend's son who wants to become going paramedic. Like I lost a son to cancer in 2007. He was 10 years old at the time. And his journey is an entire different podcast. But we, what's fascinating and what I really wanna bring up and what's coming up for me is, you know, the concept of collateral beauty and seeing beauty in collateral damages and looking for it.

And I know that what my son Xavier went through. He, his first diagnosis, he was six years old, so you have to think that he went to school with the same kids through, you know, all the way through to the age of 10, and they saw his story, they lived his story with him, and I know some of them has. You know, that's helped them make decisions in their lives that are very positive, including, you know, one of them became a nurse and another one that drove his study in science.

And so I know there's these stories as well that are. Giving them that drive to be at service or to be in the medical field or to be in social work as a result of what my son went through, what they learned from that for their own journey. So yeah, I think we, we all have our life journey that drives us, but some of us have a slightly different life journey that puts us at service to other humans.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yes. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Thank, and thank you for, for sharing, you know, the story of your son. I mean, I know it because we know each other going back of quite a few years, but, You know, it takes a certain degree of vulnerability and, and authenticity and bravery, I think, to share it. So I appreciate that and, and just, you know, illustrating the impact that, you know, losing him, that it ha there was a, there was, you know, as, as, as traumatic and sad as his loss was, the impact on the other kids.

I mean, that's crazy and that, you know, this, that you've seen this happen. What a, what a beautiful, what

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: It's a gift. It, it is his legacy. Yeah, for sure. 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yeah.

yeah. And clearly legacy is very important to you and I, I think that, you know, that might be at play for first responders and then certainly for people in, in our profession because there's this, this you know, idea of of being in service, of, of leaving a legacy that is so, common that I hear this from so many different.

Leaders in HR and talent that I talk to right regularly. It, it really is a common theme. So let's dig in. And it's partly connected, I think to, to, you know, the story of, of Xavier. But coaching, so you and I met in 2017 at Adler Faculty of Coaching. I think we met in week three. It was, I don't know.

It took me a full year to go through from end to end, including practicum, and that was faster than most people. And 'cause I was just on a roll. I was ready. I had started my, my, my company and I really, really dove deep anyways. You and I connected very early and we had some pretty formative experiences in there.

And you know, you had shared with me when we reconnected more recently around the epiphany you had. So, 'cause you know, at the time you were consulting, you're pursuing the coaching designation same as me, and now you're in corporate, which is where I had been and had just left at the time. You've gone there because clearly it, it, it is the right place for you right now.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Called me back 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: did, how did you, yeah, how did you come through that? What happened?

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Yeah. I did share that with you. I'm glad you were not in week one with me. Let's start with that, Lisa, just because week one I walked in there thinking, okay, I'm gonna start a consulting business and I need some letters after my name. And so I'm here for the letters after my name. So how do we get through this thing?

'cause let's go. You know, I'm, I'm here. I gotta focus. I'm driven, but I just want the letters. So what's this about? What's going on? What's, what's happening? What's happening here? Right? So you go through the first week and you, and I remember driving home and I shared with you how much I love to drive. I do my best thinking and driving and going, what was that?

What did I just go through? What was this week?

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: That was me only. I was on the go train going, holy cow, what have I signed up for?

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: How is it that I go through a course and I'm coming out of it with more questions than I went going in, but I think that was the beginning of the seed, right? Just, walking away with more question. And then I, yeah, I thought about it again. Do I really wanna do this again? Do I wanna go through week two?

Okay um, let's go. But I, obviously, I went through the entire journey of learning through, through all that. But then as you know, like you go through your final submissions and you do, you prepare all your package, you, you've had these clients. 'cause that's what you have to do to get your certification.

So I had my clients, I have my recordings, I have everything. I've got my books, I've got my journals. I've written pages and pages and pages and pages and pages. My finger hurts, and then I could not answer the first question. Didn't matter. It was What do you wanna do with your coaching? Like what, what do you wanna do with your coaching?

Essentially, the most basic question, I'm sure it came easy to you, did not come easy to me. I could not answer that question. I got stuck in that question. I really couldn't find it, and then I kept bringing it back. I talked to the husband, I talked to a really good friend of mine, and I just, I, it just, there was no answers coming to me and I thought, okay, I'll just delay, send the emails saying, oh, I'm delaying my submissions, you know, I need more time.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yeah.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Then you keep thinking about it. It's like, this is not working out. I can't answer the first question, but I, I kept, it, kept, it stayed with me. It stayed with me, and really what came through for me eventually was this was never, never. About me building my business. This, this journey was never about, you know, coming out of this a great coach.

And I pushed myself. I even made sure that I had life coaching client, not just an executive coach. Like I really pushed myself through the entire process. And at the end of the day really was, for me, the entire journey was so I could look at myself in the mirror and really answer the real question, which is.

What kind of leader do you wanna be? Who do you wanna be? Who are you from this point forward? Had nothing to do with the letters, the certification, nothing like that. None of it is lost, obviously. Tons of learning through that journey that I apply. Through, you know, one-on-one coaching that I do here at Intern that as you, you know, talked about, integrated into the learning journey, but any, everything else, but ultimately my coaching journey was the best gift I gave myself.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: So

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Mm-Hmm.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: I am just getting tingles because I just think, you know what's. Fascinating is even though you and I, and actually I think it was week two that we met possibly, do you remember the 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: I think it was, the, 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: yes. Yes. Anyways, so listeners, you know, I, I, I hate, I, we, we don't mean to be talking school here, but honestly, like this was the most immersive I.

Unbelievable learning experience unlike anything we'd ever encountered with, you know, all sorts of corporate, you know, really top-notch learning experiences. This was really immersive and, and when you go through coach training, you, it's all about, they kind of break you down to build you back up. So it's about working on yourself.

'cause you can't coach unless you've done the work and are continually. Doing the work, it never ends. And, and that's a hard thing after 20, 30 years in business and being really, you know. 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Driven women.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: sell driven women and being celebrated for that to, to sort of really all of a sudden have it and, you know, become very clear in front of you what your growth edge is and what, what, you know, who you, you've got lots of potential and also lots of opportunity to become more agile as a, as a human and as a leader.

It's, it's very humbling as an experience. So, just as a little backdrop, what strikes me with your. Story Kat, and why I'm so glad that you're willing to, to share this with me and with listeners is, you know, even though we started in the same place and landed somewhere very different, it doesn't matter because you had expected, okay, I'm gonna get letters after my name, I'm gonna have this useful thing, and it's useful just not in the way you expected because the journey

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Just as important. Mm-Hmm.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: The journey is just as important as the outcome. That's actually been one of the biggest, hardest lessons of my life

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Mm-Hmm.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: is letting go a bit of outcomes, because I often find, even as I'm planting seeds for all the stuff, whether it's business development or you know, just in my own personal life, you know, like organizing vacations or whatever it is, they don't always play out the way I envisioned.

Often they don't, but there's other beautiful things that happen instead.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. These collateral beauties.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yes. Collateral beauties. Yeah. And I like that you call it collateral beauty, because wasn't, there's the, the film called Collateral. Collateral, was it Collateral 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: It's a lot of beauty. Yeah. Yeah. With Will Smith. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. Yeah. But it's the same thing. I mean, if, if if anyone has ever seen this movie, that's the essence of the movie, right? Where there's so much good that can come out, and I don't mean to be dismissive. Of the challenges that comes with anything and trauma and everything else.

And I don't wanna dismiss the journey I went through either, but really being able to seek out greater than what's expected. And, and taking that in and learning from it and moving on each day, learning what's coming up and coming up and taking in the lessons and moving them forward. But being able to stop and say, okay, I, I wanna appreciate what's just happened.

And it might be really tough and it might be very hurtful, and it might be the thing that breaks me. So I need to stop and I need to look and I need to see, and who am I becoming and what's happening and, and what do I do with that? And how do I continue to move forward? And frankly, there is a parallel between Para, you know.

Collateral beauty, my personal trauma moving through this time, going through coaching and being able to afford myself that time to say, this was all about me stopping and looking inward and moving forward, you know?

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: Yeah, I was just reading an article actually by a psychologist and she just wrote a book and I cannot think of the name right now. But anyways, but she's, she's focused on working with high performance individuals and so on, and, and just, she was sharing top tips, you know, in a short sort of magazine article about, but it's all the stuff that we work with clients on when coaching, you know, around slowing down and that we've had to work on personally as driven individuals.

Right? So this idea of, of taking time, taking space. Giving yourself the grace to be in your life. There's, there's another movie, you know, talking about collateral damage. There's also another one that I saw in French years ago, so it's based on a book, the, the Unbearable Lightness of Being. I, I read it in French, I think it was actually originally written in, in Ukrainian perhaps.

But the movie stars, oh. Really? I just can't, oh, she was in, she was in another famous movie. But anyways, she's a wonderful French actress and it's, I really recommend this movie. But it, it's about the bittersweet flavor of life that there's, there's, you know, so much darkness and then there's so much light and that sometimes it just is,

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: And together at 

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: And together all at once. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you for, for telling us about your experience and I'm so grateful that you and I met back then, and also we've kept in touch throughout, but that we've really been able to reconnect and have this conversation and share it with others. I think you have a really important story and, and outlook that's, that's critical for people to hear.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate2: Thank you so, so much, Lisa. Again, thank you for the work that you're doing with these podcasts. They've been part of my driving journey and I've enjoyed having your voice and the voice of your guests in my car with me. So thank you very much.

Cat Hebert GMT20240507-192330_Recording_separate1: My pleasure. I'm so glad that that, that it's providing value because I'm trying to be of service, so I appreciate that. Thank you, Kat. Thank you once again.