The Role of Civility During Tough Feedback with Tanya Lynch

“To be a leader, it’s high stakes, high rewards.”
-Tanya Lynch

HR professionals regularly have to navigate tough conversations, and sometimes, layoffs.  It’s never fun, and it’s reality. It’s also difficult to get right.   Today’s guest shares her wisdom around bringing dignity, respect and civility into the approach.   And the world and the workplace could certainly use more civility in general these days!

My guest is Tanya Lynch. Tanya serves as the Vice President, Human Resources for Boingo Wireless. As Head of HR, she leads the people strategy with a focus on optimizing employee engagement through effective talent management and organizational performance systems. With over 20 years of progressive experience, Tanya has previously held senior HR roles with Mouser Electronics and The Neiman Marcus Group. She is committed to shaping the future of wireless connectivity while fostering a positive, creative, and collaborative work environment for all Boingo employees, affectionately known as “Boingoites”.

In addition to her work at Boingo, Tanya has also served on the Board for HAKing Innovation, an organization focused on creating confidence and competence in our youth through STEAM programming. Tanya received her BA from San Jose State University, and her MBA from the University of Dallas. She also holds a certificate of Employment Law from Cornell University.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• Wisdom around managing layoffs with dignity and civility for you and those affected   
• A compelling parallel between corporate leaders and sports coaches
•  What employees need to relearn upon their return to the physical office

Links

Tanya Lynch on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/latanyamlynch/

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Transcript

HR professionals regularly have to navigate tough conversations and sometimes layoffs. It's never fun and it's reality. It's also difficult to get right. Today's guest shares her wisdom around bringing dignity, respect, and civility into the approach and the world in the workplace could certainly use more civility in general these days.

My guest is Tanya Lynch. Tanya is the Vice President of Human Resources for Boingo Wireless, where she leads the people strategy. Tanya has previously held senior HR roles with Mouser Electronics and the Neiman Marcus group. In addition to her work at Boingo, Tanya has also served on the board for Hacking Innovation, which is an organization focused on creating confidence and competence in our youth through STEAM programming.

On top of all this, Tanya holds a ba, an MBA, and a Certificate of Employment Law from Cornell University. In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover wisdom around managing layoffs with dignity and civility for you, and those affected a compelling parallel between corporate leaders and sport coaches.

And finally, what employees need to relearn upon their return to the physical office? Enjoy. 

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell, and today I am joined by Tanya Lynch. Tanya is Vice President of HR at Boingo Wireless. Welcome to the show, Tanya.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Thank you. Excited to be here.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yeah, we're gonna have a great conversation. So let's kick off by having you share a bit about your path, your career journey to date.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Sure, sure. Wow. Well, had kind of an interesting start in hr. I actually I'll kind of back up a bit. I actually started my, my career, so to speak, working my way through school at Nordstrom. So, you know, Nordstrom had this big, huge focus on customer service and towards the end of my time there and as I was.

Getting ready to graduate from college. Someone, a colleague actually got recruited to work for a staffing agency and staffing agency. It was manpower. They were really interested in the Nordstrom employees because of the customer service focus. I. So I got on with manpower and kind of worked my way up through there.

Got the promotion to be on site. And when I was onsite at a company as a staffing rep, I got a taste of being an HR journalist and I was hooked 'cause it was, you know, the little bit of the investigations and the coaching and partnering with the managers. And I just loved it. And so from there I ended up going on to work for Microsoft.

They had opened up a brand new campus in the Silicon Valley, which was just awesome at the time. This is, thank you know. Height of the tech boom. And so it's, it's just on fire, everything in terms of hiring and the, the staffing world and whatnot. So I worked there and ended up meeting a man, a wonderful man, and he had an opportunity in Texas.

And so I was able to transfer with Microsoft to Irving, Texas, which is in the Dallas area. And so worked there for a while, but, you know, always been very ambitious and driven. Wanted to get promoted. Just wasn't anywhere to go in that particular location. So I didn't end up leaving. But while I was there, I had a really good mentor a previous manager, Ivan Thompson, who really worked with me to let me get exposure to a lot of areas of HR I probably shouldn't have had exposure to and experience at such an early stage in my career.

So I was able to actually go from an coordinator role. To a manager role at First American Title, and worked there for a while. And then of course the refinance boom kind of came to an end. And from there I went on and, and got my first start off in the wireless industry at Nokia. I worked at Nokia, which had a, a fabulous model.

For hr partners in terms of really being a business partner and, you know, sitting in on the meetings and adding value and being an extension of the management teams and in, and in that capacity, I was hooked as well with, you know, being able to function in that manner with my business partners.

And so unfortunately that location ended up closing down. Ended up getting recruited to another wireless company called Touchstone, which actually did remanufacturing and reverse logistics. And at that company had really good experience because we started off with about 200 employees and got close to 900 by the time I left.

And then fortunately, right before I left, we actually had a big layoff and went right back down. And so there were a lot of yeah, there were a lot of ups and downs in that particular role, but it was a really good experience. And then kind of going back to the luxury retail roots, I ended up going from Touchstone to Neiman Marcus as an HR or an employee relations manager actually.

Love employee relations, love the investigations, and kind of, kinda getting into the weeds of, of issues honestly, and helping to problem solve in the workplace. And did that for a short while at Neimans and got promoted then to a director position and kind of going back into the journalist I.

Space. And then uh, Neman Marcus started going through some changes and so I ended up getting pulled on at a company called Maer Electronics. Worked at Maer for over six years. It was an electronics distribution company. Wow. Really good company. Very close to home. I had a pretty young son at the time, so it just worked out well.

But got a lot of really good experience there and then wanted to grow. Felt like, okay, I've been a director now for a while. I'm ready for that next step, and that's when BOGO called. And I've been at Boingo now for two years, heading their HR department, so I do reporting to the CEO. It's been a wonderful opportunity.

Boingo is at just one of the best cultures I've ever worked in, and so I, I feel privileged to be able to be a part of, of this greater organization. So that's where I'm right now.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Awesome. Okay. And we're gonna break some of this, this down, this experience. It's awesome. So, so when I, when I heard you talk about being an onsite staffing rep for manpower, I was like, oh my God, because. 'cause one of my first exposure to talent acquisition and, and so on was working with an onsite rep from Manpower.

I was originally, when I left teaching, I was placed in a large call center environment for one of our big banks here in Canada. That's where I met my husband actually. we used to have to hire like hundreds of. People two times a year seasonally. And so I worked with Manpower and actually helped create the whole strategy.

And one of my former guests on the show here, actually, it, it turns out she was the regional manager here at the time, right? Like it actually

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Oh my gosh,

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: knew my name. It was the strangest thing. But anyway, such great experience, right? Because there you're blending the staffing element and the customer service element 'cause you're on the customer's site.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yes.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: What would you say was sort of the most important takeaway from those days for you? That you still kind of are grateful you have?

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I think in that role is where I really kind of found my footing and finding that balance because you are you're on site. So you're not an employee, right? But you're an extension of the organization because you're helping to support them with bringing in talent. And so I thought it was interesting 'cause you get the perspective of being kind of on the outside and being a, a consultant, if you will, but also you're part of the culture.

You're on site, you're attending the functions, you're going to the. Holiday parties. And so I think it was there that I learned how to kind of separate myself, but still be included. It's kind of an oxymoron, right? But as hr, we kind of have to do that. And I might be old fashioned, but it's kind of my philosophy.

And I was even told this early in my career, when you're in hr, you have to be friendly to everyone but friends with no one. And that's kind of a an exaggeration, but basically just learning to maintain that professionalism the consistency. But at the same time, you know, the empathy, the insight, and the perspective of the employee at hand.

So I thought that was really good experience.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yes. Yeah, it's inter, oh, that's an interesting quote. They're friendly, but friends with no one. I, yeah, I, I get it because having been in that, in that function myself, it's there, it's a fine line, right? Because you might find yourself in a position where. You're, you know, you potentially are close with somebody and you have to be part of the, you know, termination meeting or something that might happen.

Like, who knows? And I don't think you can spend your career worrying about that. I think it's more about how do we, I. Show up with true empathy in any situation, right? And, and whether we're having fun, we're doing something joyful as a group, or it's something like that. How do we show up and, and anticipate what that person needs?

Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting conundrum. We could have a little show on that one. All right. So. So then you talked about some great companies here where you got some really interesting experience through Microsoft and Nokia. I'd love to, to get into the touchtone example because, you know, scaling from 200 to 900 employees, no small feat, I don't know how long did that take?

Like that was over what time period?

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Oh wow. It was just a few months and I can't recall exactly, but it was not a long time. It was literally it was one or two very large customers or a contract that we won. And I remember sitting down with the director of operations and he had his, you know, his staffing matrix and he laid it out in front of me and he's like, this is what we need.

And so, wow. It was just a matter of sitting down with him, thinking through the timeline of, you know, when we need to get the people in. And then it was just a goal. And so funny story behind this, I am one of those types who, if you dangle the carrot, I'm gonna go after it, right? It could be whatever it is.

Literally a carrot. I'm just gonna go after it. I'm just very goal oriented. So my old boss, jack Gimel, wonderful guy who I work for and really still a good mentor now. He actually promised me a pair of Crocs, those

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Oh yes. My son just spent 85 bucks on Crocs with little

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: oh, yeah.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: in. I'm like, why are you spending that much money?

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: My son has some too. And yeah, the crazy little $5 things that stick in them.

So yeah, he had promised, 'cause that was like the big thing back then. This is 15, 16 years ago. And so, I'm like, okay, I'll, I'll go ahead and, and do this. And, and I, I met my staffing goal and I still have those Crocs in my closet. But what was interesting with all of that is. You know, the more you add employees to a location or to an organization, and we were, you know, it was one facility, it was one warehouse environment that we had.

You're gonna have to deal with a lot of dynamics. So you're bringing these people in, you gotta get 'em onboarded, you gotta get 'em trained. Just even a new hire. ramp up process was just a lot. And so we really had to kind of work through that. And at the same time, make sure that the managers were equipped to manage these people.

So I remember at that same time. You know, pushing out a lot of management training to make sure that the leaders understood how to acclimate these employees as well. 'cause otherwise you're just going bodies in, into the mix. And that's, it was a huge undertaking from a staffing perspective, but also just the culture and the day-to-day with the employees, employee relations.

I mean, it was a lot. So it was, it was a really good experience though.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yeah, it's so rapid because again, going back to, you know, CIBC finance edge links, where I had the manpower rep, like we were having, you know, we were bringing in hun like 200 people in a month to, and had to ramp them up on customer service, like call center stuff and back office processing. And what we found is.

You know, not all of them made it through training. They might leave or not like, 'cause they're like, oh God, being, you know, attached to the end of a phone all day is not my jam. So, so I partnered with manpower to figure out how could we, you know, we did tours and we did all this kind of stuff. But I remember just the orchestration of it, like as you're talking about 'em, like, oh yeah.

Like there was so much to, to make happen in a short period of time to acclimate. I like that word. Get them in. And then we had to do this over and over twice per year. So then we had to have a process to then allow for attrition over time to bring the numbers down as the season tapered off. 

And anyways, so I'm curious, so when, when this, this need to, now you scaled up to 900, what happened when now the need was to scale back down.

Was that because the contracts completed or something?

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: No, we lost the largest contract that we had, unfortunately. And so it was it was pretty, it was pretty tough and I had gone through layoffs before, but this was the first time in my career that I had to lead it. So, you know, I'm the, the face of HR for that location. I had a team under me, some of me, some of the people on my own team were impacted.

So that was, I remember just the exhaustion for myself and my team, those who had to help with the reductions. And also just the, the weight that was on the management team and the leadership team, and just the employee body in general because you, you know, you get used to. To Sally who sits next to you at, you know, break time or lunch or, or whose locker's next to you.

And Sally's not there anymore. There's a void. And so it, it was a very difficult time but it was basically just a matter of losing that particular contract. And so, that was kind of towards the tail end. I was not at the company too much longer after that, but I definitely remember the impact and kind of the hole that it left.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: So for if, if we have, you know, I'm assuming we've got some listeners that are, are relating to this, right? That have had to lead a, a, a big layoff or may have to do in the future. Who knows? Right.

What would be your biggest piece of advice going into something like that? You know, hindsight is foresight.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah. I, I think for me so when I was at Microsoft, I'll back up. I actually helped out with some re reductions that we did there and, and my manager told me at that time, always treat employees with respect and dignity. Whether it's a layoff, it's a, a termination, whether it's a coaching or an investigation, because I think it's.

Easy. It's human nature to kind of, you know, form these presuppositions right. About what you think is going on with that particular employer that or that scenario. And I think it's HR people, we have to remember the human side, right? But it, it's interesting in hr, you've got this, you know, we, we were personnel, you know, and, and it was the focus on the people.

And then it was like, no, we're business people who, you know, know people or know HR or know the human side. And I think you've always gotta make sure we're maintaining that balance. 'cause the, the companies look to us as kind of the heartbeat. And so, you know, if you could be an HR person, you know, with a physics degree or you know, an economics background, but you're always gonna be, if you fall into hr, the the people person.

And so for me, I've always try to. Keep that kind of center to what I do, or even with my team or when I'm mentoring other HR people to make sure that we are remaining respectful, you know, civil in whatever transaction that we're dealing with. And so, I always think in terms of, you know, how would I want someone to treat my mom or my son, you know, if they were on that other side of the, of the table.

You know, making sure that our disposition is reflective of empathy and understanding, also taking the time to listen. I remember sitting down with someone, you know, and, and this is, you know, with, even with touchstone. At Neimans, you know, you're having to do maybe a hundred or 200 or whatever the number is in a day.

You know, split out by a group of HR people. But it's exhausting 'cause you're repeating the same conversations, you're going through all the legal aspects of the agreement, the, the exit process. But taking the time to listen to the employees, you know, it's, it's, you've gotta do that and. You gotta find the balance of, of when to kind of try to taper the conversations down, but to make sure that we're open and that we're still trying to understand and be respectful of that human side of the employee.

I think that's just critical in every area of hr, to be honest.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yeah, it's, it's a tough day when you, you know, when you have to, like, I mean, to be let go. Is is, I mean honestly that's you, you think about the impact on people and their families and everything. And, but it is interesting as HR people to think about the impact on, on us when doing it.

Like, I'll never forget January 4th, 2009 , right after the crash and I worked for Wealth Management Company and we had to orchestrate a, a large, like a mass layer for the first time in the company's history. And I think I've probably mentioned on the show before, but. I had to do the whole project plan.

I had people up at North York office, like North Toronto and all in the offices doing it, and where we had the bulk of the employees. Then I took the subway downtown to where my office was and kept going a smaller office. And I remember this one young woman who we had hired and she was brilliant. Into the sales analytics team.

And she was last in, that's the only reason we were letting her go. 'cause there was a mandate and she actually hugged me at the elevator corridor.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Oh wow.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: like, I hope, and I'm like, you know, I really wanna wish you up. 'cause I had helped hire her and she, she was like, oh, I hope you're okay, Lisa.

She gives me this big hug. And I remember that being this pivotal moment for me of, you know. Like, it was really like just the humanity in that moment of this person who's just lost her job and she's showing empathy to 

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah. 

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: right. And recognizing me not as, you know, the man and, you know, just the, the mouthpiece of the company.

But seeing the situation for what it was really unfortunate.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Wow. That, that's, that's huge. That's a really a very neat moment to have in your

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you, you used a word too, a few minutes ago you were talking about dignity, certainly, and empathy, and you, you used the word civil.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: mm-Hmm.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: And, you know, uh, CHRM right now is in the state, so I'm a member there too. But they, they've been having a lot of discussions and talking about civility, right?

How do

we encourage civil conversations? The workplace particularly 'cause the political atmosphere is in the US is so polarized and we won't get into politics or anything, but, but I can only imagine, you know, what shows up day to day. 'cause people are so emotional about this and so divided. So this, this concept of civility.

It, it, it kind of connects what we're talking about, right? People are people. How do we, even in the tough moments, treat people with civility even when we disagree, how can we do it? What are your thoughts about, about that and, and how civility, how can we help people demonstrate this in the workplace?

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Sure. Yeah. I mean, Lisa, you're right. There's you know, I, I went to the conference in Chicago for the Society of Human Resource Management. Yeah. And there was a, a huge amount of focus still on civility in the workplace. They've launched a huge campaign around this. And I, I'm definitely seeing it. And so if you think about when employees are dealing with right now in general of course you've got, you know, in the US.

The, the political landscape is, is crazy. And yes, I won't, I agree. I won't get into the details with that, but I think people kind of understand. But you've also got this kind of post covid world that we're all still trying to adjust to, you know, so when you've got a workforce that was in the office five days a week.

Then they go home full time. Then in some cases there's a push to get them back into the office full time, and then maybe people kind of settle into a hybrid. We have to learn to work with each other again. We have to learn literally how to be in each other's spaces. I'm seeing issues even within my own organization that I didn't see five years ago.

There's a little bit more sensitivity around space and people being able to function and work next to each other and, and getting used to things like. This is petty, but it's a thing, right? You know, my coworker, you know, is eating their food and crunching too loud or, you

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Oh 

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: I mean little things or someone touched me when, when they were talking to me and, and I think people have kind of, I.

And I mean, like touching, like touching their shoulder or something like that. So I think it's it's a matter of getting used to being in the workplace. And then also the assumptions people make when you're behind the veil of the screen. It's one thing to be able to look someone in the eyes literally and communicate with them and to kind of, read their body language, right?

The kind of the, the nonverbal communication. When you lose that, when you're in a Zoom call. And so what I'm seeing in terms of issues and even performance issues, I think are sometimes a result of this or productivity issues, I should say, are that people have to relearn how to communicate with their colleagues because it's, you know, now it's sole formula.

I think about it. So five years ago, if you were, were in a company and you need to, to contact somebody in accounting and they're, maybe they're the next, you know. Floor over or whatever. The hall over. You can just get up and walk over there. Now it's okay. Let me see if Susie is green on Teams or on Zoom.

And now I'll reach out to her to see if it's okay to have that conversation with her. And it's, it's created glitches. Communication and it's also caused a lot of isolation. So I think that when you kind of throw all those together, wow, we, we, you know, it's easy for people to be stressed out. I think.

There's a lot of work now that's coming into play. People are feeling kind of overwhelmed with, with their lives and then trying to combine that with work. And then also I. Just the the format of work being somewhat hybrid or for some, even still full-time at home and how to separate work from your personal life.

So that adds a whole level of stress. So yeah, I'm, I'm definitely seeing some issues that I had not seen in, in years. And I think there's definitely a need to be just mindful of remaining civil with our colleagues and making sure people are treated with respect and dignity and that we're taking into account their opinions, their, Perspectives and making sure that they feel inclusive, you know, in the workplace.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Here, here. I agree. So, so what do we practically do about that? Like what are, like how. Are you approaching that at Boingo? Like how do you bake dignity and respect and civility into, you know, the culture?

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Well, I think you gotta have the conversation and, and so, I've spoken to to my CEO about this and he's in agreement in terms of making sure that we remain focused on this because it's something that can ultimately, I. It can affect the productivity of a company and the wellbeing of the culture.

And so one of the things that we've done is kind of going back to the coaching piece, just making sure that when we're training our managers how to be effective coaches, that we make sure they stay focused on the people side of being a leader. And so I think it's very easy just to. As a manager, focus on the objectives of the business.

And what I have been trying to really drill into my leaders is to make sure that you're valuing each person as an individual. So one of the tips that I tell my employees is you're not really an effective manager who's built a rapport with your employee until you know. The names of their spouse or partner and their kids and their dog and their cat or whatever.

You know, you've gotta, you don't need to get too into, you know, too much into the weeds personally with your employees, but you need to have some type of a interpersonal rapport with them because you can then understand them as an individual. And I do think there's something to being that for employees to be valued as an individual and be able to bring their their whole selves to work.

And so that's one of the things that we're doing at blingo, is really training, trying to make sure that our leaders keep it at the top, top of mind. To, you know, be that person to, to dictate the work, but also to be a coach to their employees as well.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yes. And you know, that's, that's where I do a lot of the, my, my work is in that space of, of, of helping leaders, like actually learn, adopt, practice, coaching skills, which often is all about the listening and how you ask questions and how you release the need for control, right? So that you're empowering people and helping not, without, not empowering, without.

Guardrails, but you're, you're really helping people do the work they're meant to do versus taking it on yourself or being a micromanager and all that kinda stuff. So yeah, I think it's really, really critical, the training aspect. And it's great to hear you're investing in that. That brings me to, as we're, we're sort of getting close to the end of our, of our conversation together, something when you and I first met that I appreciated was you brought up the idea of, of leaders being kinda like sports co coaches.

It's a, there's a bit of an analogy. Could you tell us a little bit about that and how you see it?

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I think, for, for coaches. If you think about the traits that you know, make coaches great. So if you think about like Coach K or my personal favorite Phil Jackson, you know, there are people who are very honed into their team so they know their sport. They know the basketball game or the football game or whatever, like the back of their hand.

Maybe they were even a previous player at one point. But they also know their players. So they know the people that they're having to deal with day in and day out. And they are very intentional on making sure that they're equipping their players to be the best. So that's, that involves giving feedback, being, you know, authentic and consistent with their feedback as well.

And also nurturing. So it's not just, oh, you, you know. You're horrible at this, you gotta improve your layups, whatever. But it's also the nurturing side and providing that to their employees. The other piece is also motivating as well. Making sure that, you know, you're not gonna always win.

And when you don't, to, to find that balance of being supportive and encouraging, but also making sure that you're, you're coaching and thinking about the, the limits that 'cause when, when sports and honestly in business as well, or in in an organization, those limits the objectives, the expectations are.

Gonna always keep going up. If you won the, the, the, the finals this year and you're the championship, it's gonna get harder next year. And so there's di there's direct parallels in sports and just in, you know, corporate leadership in all of those areas. We wanna make sure we know our, our business, our craft.

We make sure that we know our employees well, that we can coach them and provide them with that feedback. And in some cases, you gotta cut a player. You gotta, you know, if, if someone is. Is not able to perform for whatever that reason is. And, and, and they're not able to meet the expectations for that role or for that position on the, you know, on the team.

Sometimes they're, they, they just can't be on the team anymore. And I think it's important to make sure that we're not doing a disservice to that, that employee by keeping them and kind of dragging them along. I think that a lot of times managers do not like having difficult conversations because when we think about vulnerability and the feedback process, a lot of times we think about the employee.

It's very vulnerable to sit back there and hear feedback. You know, it's both sides, Lisa. Right.

You know, it's like, as the manager, I, I don't like it. I don't like to sit down with my employee and to tell them, you know, areas that they need to make improvements in. But it's a disservice to that employee and their ability to make improvements, whether it's at this company or the next one if I don't do that.

So.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Well, yes, in, in my experience, I mean even just this week with some coaching clients. But it's interesting 'cause the majority of, areas for improvement with leaders. I think when it comes to feedback is, I, I would say way more leaders put their head in the sand and avoid having the conversations than actually act like a bull in the China shop and like, come on, too strong.

Right. They tend to avoid and, and that, you know, it comes back to the whole thing in Brene Brown. Clear is kind, unclear, is unkind. Right. And, and, and I think that's so important to remember, right? You just said sometimes you have to cut a player and it sounds. It sounds like, oh, what do you mean? But it's not cutthroat because honestly, it, as long as we've helped as HR professionals help the leaders be civil, be respectful, protect that person's dignity, there's no point if we've given them every chance, you know, to be clear on expectations and to, and to make some improvements.

And we've really worked with them. Wholeheartedly if they still, it's just not a fit. It's not good for them, for you or the team 

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah. 

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: And so I think that is a really important reminder we have because I, I said to you earlier, off air, just this week, two different coaching clients, I couldn't believe in the same week we're struggling with.

Saying goodbye to someone and because they felt like they were beating themselves up. Have I done enough? And in both cases, I will tell you they have, this wasn't where they put their head in the sand. It was a long journey, but they're at the point where it's shoot, you know, because then there's also a bit of a sunk cost fallacy here, where now I've done all this great stuff to try to help this person and try to make it work and it's not going to, and I have to face that.

It's a very vulnerable experience. Like you, you use that word and it's so apt.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot of courage and it's hard. So I think it's, you know, to be a leader, it's kind of, I think of high stakes, high rewards. It's rewarding to have the title or to have the authority over a team or to be responsible for the result, but you've also gotta, you know, look at the, the other side as well.

So,

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate1: Yeah. High stakes. High rewards. Beautifully put. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a, a wonderful conversation. I really, really appreciate you coming today to, to share your wisdom with us.

Tanya Lynch_GMT20240719-141247_Recording_separate2: Thank you. It's been fun.