Changes in Leadership Development Over the Last Decade with Larry Baider

“Leaders need to realize today that you can't possibly know it all. You also can't execute alone.”
-Larry Baider

How has your organization adapted to the evolving landscape of leadership development? What we know about effective learning for leaders has evolved over the last decade, and even since before the pandemic.  In today’s episode, my guest and I explore what has changed. 

My guest is Larry Baider. Larry has served in several executive HR leadership positions in large organizations and is currently the Vice President of Talent Management, Leadership & Learning at AmeriHealth Caritas. 

He is enthusiastic about helping individuals and organizations optimize their potential and their capacity to lead. Some of the most impactful contributions his teams have made include award-winning development programming and sustainable talent management and leadership practices. 

Larry has graduate education in Strategic Communication & Leadership, Applied Positive Psychology, Industrial-Organizational Psychology and is also a graduate of CoachU’s coach training program. He is now on his PhD journey in Performance Psychology.

Larry is a regular speaker on leadership, organizational psychology, and peak performance. He authored his first book, Leadership to the Fifth Power in 2007 and is currently co-host of the Lean In Leaders Podcast.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you’ll discover:

• An example of a lifelong learner in action
• Observations from Larry and Lisa around what has changed in terms of Leadership Development since ten years ago, and since before the pandemic
• The pitfalls of being constrained by personality assessment "identity hooks" or labels.

Links

• Larry Baider on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/larry-baider/ 
• HBR article on blending various leadership styles for best effect (democratic, autocratic, pacesetting, etc.): https://hbr.org/2000/03/leadership-that-gets-results  (NOTE - you will have to pay for the article)
• Episode 133 -   AI”s impact on L&D and Workplace Roles with Josh Cavalier
  • https://talentmanagementtruths.buzzsprout.com/2267279/15129127-ai-s-impact-on-l-d-and-workplace-roles-with-josh-cavalier

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Transcript

How has your organization adapted to the evolving landscape of leadership development? What we know about effective learning for Leaders has evolved over the last decade and even since before the pandemic. In today's episode, my guest and I explore what has changed from our perspective. My guest is Larry Bader, Larry's Vice President of Talent Management, leadership and Learning at Amer Health Caritas.

He has education and strategic communication and leadership. Applied positive psychology, industrial organizational psychology, and he's a graduate of a coach training program. Currently, he's on his PhD journey in performance psychology. On top of all this, Larry is an author and a podcaster.

In this episode of Talent Management Truths, you'll discover an example of a lifelong learner in action. Observations from me and Larry around what's changed in terms of leadership development over the past decade, and finally, the pitfalls of being constrained by personality assessment, identity hooks or labels.

I hope you enjoy. Hello and welcome back to Talent Management Truth. I'm your host, Lisa Mitchell. Today I'm joined by Larry Bader. Larry is Vice President of Talent Management, leadership and Enterprise Learning at Amer Health Caritas, and I always stumble on that. Katas, how did, did I do it right there? Caritas?

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: good. You're, you're good enough. 

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: awesome. Awesome. Welcome to the show, Larry. It's great to have you here. So, let's kick off and share a little bit about who you are in your career journey.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Yeah. Well first it's a pleasure to, to be here. I had a chance to talk to you for a couple minutes before your podcast, and I think we could have probably spoken for 24 hours straight. We, we were definitely gro in there, so, yeah, so I am, as you mentioned, the vice president Talent management, leadership and enterprise learning.

At AmeriHealth Caritas, it's a managed Medicare organization which means we are taking care of the people who are in the greatest need of many of the healthcare services. And, and there, their healthcare needs. So it's a really unique company, has a lot of different product lines and services.

It's more than an insurance company. I honestly feel like I work more for a straight up healthcare organization. But it's really a combination of the two, but it, it, they do great work. headquartered out of just south of the Philly metro area. But has a footprint throughout many parts of, of the United States, and super proud to be here.

At the organization. We are responsible. I'm responsible for more than what the title encompasses. It intersects performance management, associate experience, along with the other three strategic human capital elements that you mentioned at the introduction.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Talent management, leadership and enterprise learning. Awesome. Okay. So yeah, so a whole lot of stuff in your portfolio. How, what's your team look like? Like how's that comprised?

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Yeah, it's a, it's a I think a modest team for the amount of lift that it, it's responsible for of about 17 people who are associates and really talented people that, again, are responsible for so many facets of what I call the offensive playbook of hr or the top of the aircraft carrier, not the boiler room, not keeping the lights on.

That's what our blocking and tackling HR teams are responsible for. But this is all about moving the organization forward through all of the sub functions of HR that I'm responsible for with my teams.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Love it. Yeah, so it's interesting because, you know, I, I haven't heard it called the offensive playbook of HR before, but, but that idea of forward momentum and movement is really fundamental to these functions that, that you're responsible for, right? We have our. Bread and butter, hr, keep the lights on your payroll, your er, your labor relations, you know, whatever it is.

But but these are the pieces that are more about that growth and development trajectory and, and finding and keeping the right people.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Yeah, and even if I could just double click on that for one moment, and I think this is where, you know, HR is. Getting to and needs to continue to be more of, and that is. Part of the business. And, and this is really what's, why these functions are so critically important when I call it the offensive playbook, because the kind of work we do should intersect and be foundational to business results.

So it's, it's, it has to be deeply integrated and rooted into that concept, especially when you talk about how we develop and prepare leaders, how you create a pipeline of leaders. That are more of emerging than incumbent leaders, as well as how you prepare them and also help them build business acumen.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Absolutely. And that seems to be a common theme. You know, the last couple months as I've been interviewing different guests that, you know, we all are in wild agreement around this need to be very centered around business results. And it's not about what we think needs to be put in place because it's a, it's the, you know, trend in the HR people world, but rather.

What is the business needing? What are they receptive to? What do they want? Where do they need a bit of a push outside their comfort zone? So how do you kind of set the stage with your team and with the business for that intersection? So.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I think it's a combination of what you just mentioned. I think it's a it's an under it's gaining in their gaining. Understanding of the intricacies of the business and the business strategy, whether that's at an organizational level or a business unit, or functional level. Then it's also a a dimension of what you bring to the table as an HR professional.

It's not, I, I would never wanna think that, and I would hope that we've gotten more away from the order taker kind of persona whether it's the more strategic dimensions of HR or the more, you know, traditional HR function. So I think it's a combination of the understanding and aligning with the business.

Knowing what you bring to the business as a strategic human capital partner and then blending the two together. So, it's not about completely abdicating to the business and, and saying, oh, maybe, well, it, it really has to be, I need to come to the table knowing what I can bring to the table. I need to be a really good listener and align with the strategy and the tactics and everything that goes along with it.

And then we come to through this ideation process in some regards, you know, what, what, what are the best solutions to help move the business along from a human capital perspective.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yes, absolutely. And, and the, the phrase that came to mind for me while you were speaking was the, you know, this, the idea of the maturity model and maturity con continuum, right. And we're gonna talk a little bit about timeline in terms of leadership development focus shortly. But yeah, it's this idea of moving from the order taker to that strategic business partner who people are at inviting to the table, right, and who are, who are also involved in just setting the table in the first place.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Exactly. Exactly.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. So let's, first I do wanna dig in a little more into sort of who you are because Fascinating. You've got quite the education track record and, and I'm a learning geek myself. So, so tell us a little bit about that. Your learning journey is very inspiring.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I appreciate that. That's very kind to you. So that it, it started, believe it or not, I, I have it started out with a ma, an MBA. In healthcare, right? So I, 'cause I started out as a clinician and I was an occupational therapist for a few years, and I remember I had a chance to sit in as like an acting supervisor while a supervisor was on vacation.

This really happened to me and like, whoa, there weren't a lot of people that I was responsible for, but I, I kind of enjoyed that and that got me on, I. And I know you asked me about my my educational experience, but it, the, it ties closely with my actual. Journey, my work journey. Right. So do you want me to go there for a minute

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: yeah. Let's,

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: two?

So, yeah. So I, I started as an ot, got some supervisory experience. I was about three years into it. And due to that one time acting, opportu acting position opportunity, I was tapped in about four years. Into my clinical journey to be a supervisor of a number of nursing home rehabs throughout the, the state I was living in and still do live in New Jersey.

And I just fell in love with the idea of leading teams, leading people. And I don't think it was much about what lit me up as it was what I thought I was doing in terms of adding value. I felt like I was making an actual difference in. People's lives and how I help them be the most successful they could be in their, in their work, right?

'cause we spend a lot of time at work. So I, I played this I, I, after that initial role, I just had a myriad of operator roles in healthcare. I got into a consulting gig for an here I was a therapist operator working for an accounting firm, starting a healthcare consulting division. And then as many people do, I fell into hr.

And that happened because I, through the healthcare space, I had the opportunity to lead and create an HR function. As a first time executive, I was a VP of HR for a national rehabilitation company, staying in that kind of part of the healthcare field. And then I got back into operations, and then around 2010.

Is when I really got my human capital chops and I had an opportunity to start an HR business partner function for a healthcare organization within a business unit. I. Then that quickly transpired into an enterprise role where the things that I created and designed with my teams at the BU level was moved to the enterprise and I started a talent management function for a company as well as taking on the same roles that I actually have today in this role.

Interestingly enough. And then I moved into a chief people officer role for the largest nursing home chain in the United States. Then ended up where I am today at the Mayor Health Caritas. So it was this kinda very interesting journey where I, you know, I was always people in human centric focused, which is why even when I was in these operator roles, I always felt like I was in HR because I was always like, I always was trying to help people improve.

I was trying to, I was always focusing on my own improvement. So what happened was in the way the, the way the educational track paralleled was I was in an MBA program early on in my career when I was still in healthcare operations and about a year and a half into, I'm like, I just don't think it's for me.

And other things were happening in my life, like, you know, kids being born and I just didn't, didn't wanna drive to a brick or mortar school two nights a week. And I somehow in the late nineties found coaching. I went to a school called Coach U out of Steamboat Springs, Colorado is one of the

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: my friend went through that. Yes.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: of the first programs out there, most people still felt coaching was only something that happened on the soccer field, right?

So I went to this school from like 1999 to 2001. I took like 600 hours at tele courses. They weren't even on the internet and, and, and, and, and there. And I started to apply that and that was where I felt like I started deepening things. And then I, this is was important. I had an opportunity to do coaching in a big four.

Accounting or firm in, in the United States, and my contact there left. So I lost my opportunity to do this like gig work, and that was purposeful because I started thinking on, if I really go down that route, I feel like I need more. So I went back to school because I found a degree in leadership, my first graduate degree, and then.

Many years later, I start, I, I'm driving to a client and I heard a positive psychology practitioner on one of the the radio networks. And I said, well, I need to look into this. What is this? And the next thing I know, I'm in school for a graduate certificate in positive psychology. And when that I thought I was done.

Then in about late 2018, I learned about IO psychology. I said, oh, this has to be it. And I went to school for two years and got my MS in IO psychology, graduated in December, 2020, and we all know what time that was.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yes,

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: and, and, and I literally thought I was done after my third graduate degree and coaching, you know, graduation, you know, graduate from a coaching program.

Like that's enough ED cred. And then literally just recently I was somehow, you know what happens? You get into an article or a journal and you start reading and you click somewhere, and then you click somewhere else. And I find. A PhD program that I at least in the way it looked on the face value, fell in love with it.

And before you know it, transcripts are flying and I'm in a graduate you know, I'm back into grad school this fall for a PhD in, in psychology and it's qualitative research and a focus on performance psychology. So that's a combination of my educational background and how pa really paralleled my, my work journey.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. It's really fascinating, right? How one thing leads to the next, right? Because you get exposed to so many things with every learning opportunity. One of the reasons I went on my own, to be honest with you, seven years. Ago was because I wanted to learn stuff that, you know, wasn't necessarily supported or needed right then.

And, and it's just been a, a bit of a overloaded buffet. I actually at one point had to say, okay, this year I'm not taking a single course or certification. I need to start just applying what I have and now I'm back into the learning sphere, if you will. Right. Like adding more stuff. 'cause it's just, it's, it's it, I don't know.

It lights me up.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I think that's, it's so interesting because I'm always questioning my motivation. I think a lot of people are like, is it the right time? And I think like many things many things in life, it's never the perfect time. But I think what my biggest motivator for learning is, I love it because it's what you just said.

I. I literally get so excited that when I'm learning, I feel like my brain is being stimulated and you really come to life when if value, if learning is a real value. I think it's just one of those things that it fuels you.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: And it extends. I, I believe in my experience anyways, the, that energy you get from learning and that enthusiasm, I think it extends to other areas. So I happen to, to really focus my. Corporate career mostly around learning talent management. I did HR proper for a while. But you know, right now I, I'd mentioned to you off air that because I'm going to Italy this fall, I am learning Italian and I can't get enough.

Like I'm so far ahead on the lessons I'm supposed to be on. 'cause it's like, and love, love of languages is, you know, I did a degree in French for God's sake. So I just love it and it's so fun. And then, you know, all of these other things that I've been doing. So I haven't pursued the, the master's and, and the PhD, I've, I've.

Definitely thought about it. I have two degrees, but but I, I, I really, for listeners, you know, I, I don't think it's necessarily that you have to do formal education either. It's about, you know, I'm challenging myself to potentially, oh my God, I'm saying it out loud. Write a book next year. That's gonna be a whole lot of research and learning and, you know, stepping outside my comfort zone, but in a very interesting way that's gonna reap a lot of rewards, I'm sure.

Just in terms of what I learn, even if I don't follow through. What are your thoughts around

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I, I agree. I, I, I. I don't pursue these degrees to really impress anyone. I do it because it, it grabs me. And, and, and if it didn't, I wouldn't do it. Now, I did, I think, I don't know if you know this, 'cause I don't think we talked about it, and I, I won't make a, a big conversation point about this, but I did publish in 2007 my first book on leadership and I was, I'm on track or. On the track to start the second book, but that may have to wait until school is over.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. You might have to be careful about how much you're you're putting on your plate here. But

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: my point. I'll be, I'll be reading your book before you read my second book.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: I love it. I love it. Well, I'm gonna have to tap in, into you offline and in terms of your experience with book publishing and everything, that's really interesting stuff. Okay. So, so you've got just, you know, incredible experience.

You've got the, the coaching piece from very early on before it was sort of the zeitgeist that it is now. You know, every other HR leader I talked to has got a coaching certification of some kind. So, you know, let's actually dig into what's. What's changed? So if you think back, we're 2024. We're recording this in August and this summer, and if you think about 10 years ago, 2014, and I think we'll also move up to just before the pandemic in around 19, let's sort of look at that as a bit of a mini timeline.

What do you see has changed over the last decade?

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: In terms of leadership, I think what's changed is that it's highlighted what's always been important. So I don't think it's that it, I I almost wish it never did change. 'cause if it did I probably would've had. Better experiences with some people who are I was under their leadership, which also motivated me, which also motivated me to do everything I do today in terms of how I lead and how I study and how I practice.

Because I had a couple really bad experience from leaders and I literally said, I'm never gonna forget this. I never wanna do that, or I never wanna be that. And I had a motto very early on where, and I literally had been carrying this through in my back pocket for decades now, where I said, if I'm ever in a leadership position of any kind, I wanna always make the workplace a better place to work because I know, and you know, and your listeners know that when you're in a formal position of leadership.

You can make the workplace great for people or you can make it a living hell. And I think it's really important that as leaders, we always think about that. So I think what's, when I think of what's changed pre pandemic over the last decade and even to where we are today, it's that leaders need to realize today that you can't possibly know it all. You also can't execute alone. And so much of this has to do with, well, there's always been true, but is now 10 x accentuated due to the pandemic. The rate of change, the pace of change, the intensity of change is palpable. In the workplace, in our personal lives, and to think that we can do it alone and that we have all the answers and we don't have to evolve more than the people we're used to involving is faulty logic.

So, you know, I think some of the things that leaders need to do differently today is be more self-aware. It was always important, but now it's critical, right? It's critical today.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: yeah. I agree. Like, you know, I was, I was trying to think, think through this myself, you know? And, and listeners, before you listen any further, I encourage you to press pause and sort of jot down, write your own timeline, right? Going back to when you started, or you know, at the very least, go back to 2014 if you can, whether as an employee or a leader and, and what, what have you seen shift over time?

Because I think it's a, it's an interesting exercise. So, you know, when I was thinking about it, geez, when I first started really doing leadership training. Back in the late nineties and it was more content driven, right? And it was a little more, you know, you are vessels and we shall fill you up right?

With, with the stuff. And there was lots of good stuff. I would say I was lucky that I had some great models early on in my career and I got exposed to some really taught notch for the times know, training and, and I'm really grateful for those experiences 'cause I think they were ahead of their time in many ways.

Sational leadership being one, one thing and, and a few other really, really interesting things. But I think self-awareness has been sort of bandied about as this term. And now I think though it's starting to come into the more, the collective consciousness, because if you think of that. You know, 2014 and before that, even being a little more focused on, you know, the, remember the one week executive leadership programs that people used to go on like that, those are rare now, right?

Oh my God. I can't take a week away, much less be on site somewhere. You know, it's really changed. But. You know, it was more content and I would say, you know, pre pandemic, I think we were starting to see a shift towards, you know, I was hearing a lot more about team coaching versus just leadership coaching.

I. Starting to, I know it existed before, but I'm just saying in the broader sort of community of training and HR and, and you know, corporate, it was becoming to a little better known. There was, there was a bit of a greater awareness. Now I would say that's the majority of what I do is team coaching, not.

Training, not teaching, not even facilitating as much. Right. So because there's this focus now on agility, generativity, and, and potential, whereas before it was, I don't know. I feel like it's, we're expecting people to be more active in their leadership learning.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Yeah, I think you're right on. And a lot of this again, has to do with this idea of post pandemic and the rate and pace and intensity of change. Leaders need to scale.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yes.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: right. So when you talk about collective consciousness, collective, you know, distributed leadership, democratized leadership, whatever you wanna call it that's how I started that part of the conversation where you just can't do it alone.

And the only way you were going to. Kind of democratize and distribute leadership is by leaving your ego at the door and realizing that you need other people and we need each other to be successful within the work we do in, in an organization whenever that work might be. So, you know, that's why where I think ego becomes a real, blocker or you know, it opens up and starts to unleash energy when you start to think about, you know, how can I truly make people better around me? And, you know, I know we won't get in. Maybe it's another topic. I talk a lot about servant leadership and what that really means, and how sometimes I think people misinterpret what that means.

And I think that it's this idea of how I, how can I. Really connect to people better and relate to them. And how can I, I talk about this a lot too. I think if you were to ask me what a leader's most important job is, my mic drop is to create the conditions for other success, and everything stems from there.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yeah, absolutely. That makes me think of the whole I don't know if you're familiar with partners in leadership, S principle and the whole idea

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Oh sure.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: a lot of people say, okay, well in order to get these results, we need to have these actions, and they stop there. Versus talking about how do we create experiences that drive beliefs, right.

That drive the actions, that drive the results, so, so adding the two additional pieces, and you just made me think of that, right? Create conditions, create experiences for people to thrive.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Yeah, and I, I am very familiar with that and I, I forget the. Hicks was it I believe one of the authors, but, but they're, they'll say layer in that, like above the line and below the

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yeah.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: know, behavior that goes along with it was, it's a very powerful framework,

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: It is, it

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: funny that you brought that up.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: yeah. We brought a sort of a, a version of it into my last corporate organization, sort of put, really put it it through, put all the leaders through it and and it was quite a a, it had a huge impact. I'm just gonna put it, put it that way. Okay. So we've got this timeline idea and, and, and you know, this, this, I just wanna underscore a couple things you said, you know.

At this point in time, leaders need to scale and leave their ego at the door. So as we think about, you know, we've got AI at the door. I was just reading this, this thing from, I think it was from SHM in the US about how I. I can't remember the name of the organization, big organization. They've just laid off or announced lay layoffs of 800 people due to performance issues.

But then they've posted almost the equal number of jobs all that are all AI related, something like that. Like it was quite sort of shocking, like just in the time a we're laying, Tesla's doing something like this as well, right? They've announced plans to lay off 10% and then they're posting all of these AI related job descriptions.

So. When you, when you think about that as the backdrop for these times, how do you democratize leadership in leafy go out the door? What's, what's, what are your words of wisdom? I.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I don't, I. I won't say you stumped me, but I really have not thought about that yet. We're within the context of my role today in our organization. We're really just getting on the path of the AI journey. I still do believe that there's more that we don't know about the impact of the downstream impact of ai.

I think many people are starting to see that. It's more about complimenting and adding to effectiveness in mo more roles than not. I'm sure there's gonna be roles over time in different industries and sectors that could replace some jobs, but, and then I think we're gonna find somewhere in the middle where even if that's true.

Employers aren't always gonna replace the people they're going to, you know, upskill them or re-skill them and find different things for them to do. And then there's gonna be those laggards that just kind of keep resisting and don't change. So, I, I. I think it's gonna run the spectrum for a while, and then probably in 10 years from now or less, it's gonna be like the internet.

It's like, yeah, it's just been here. So, because at the end of the day, we all know that AI is already in so many of the platforms and tools that we use in and outside of the workplace. It's, it's just that there's so much more of it happening and so much more intentional, and that's somehow so much more now in front of the curtain, in the stage that you have to.

Think about strategically how you're going to use the capability in the workplace versus res. You can't resist it because if you're using any platforms as a client it's in there. It just depends on if you're aware of it and to, and to what degree you're gonna pursue and, and install and, and, you know, bring it to life.

So hopefully that makes

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: resistance is futile, is what? That's what

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: it comes to a, when it comes to ai.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Well, and listeners, you know, please do, if you're listening and, and you're, you're curious more about, you know, how do I get more strategic and figure out ways to practically you know, start to integrate some ai, go back and listen to the episode with Josh Cavalier.

Because it's, it, it'll, it's very, very practical, juicy tips and tools even that you can download

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I'll, I'll have to li I'll have to listen

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: to that. Yeah. Just like I've really well learned so much and now I use chat GPT to much greater effect. But I, I, I, back to the, you know, the timeline piece and what's shifted.

I think that. Given where we are with, with leadership and this greater awareness of, of ego, of inner critic. You know, I remember 10 years ago people didn't know what that was. I don't think I even knew. And you know, it was new to me and now I'm a coach and it comes up all the time. It is ever present.

I actually think that, that this greater. I don't know, sense of our humanity and the need to continually grow and become more agile is actually going to aid us so that AI doesn't take us over, but rather becomes an amplifier for what we do or what, you know, I. For our capacity and where we spend our time.

So it's, it's, it's gonna

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: That makes sense.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yeah. Yeah. So, all right. So something, you know, I'm gonna take a bit of a, a left turn here because something that I really wanted to make sure that we get to Larry is, you know, when we first met you were talking about, we touched on sort of work style assessments and personality profiles, and.

I certified in several, and I'm sure you are as well. And you talked about, you know, how important it is not to get trapped or tripped up by something called identity hooks. And I'm hoping you can kind of tell us more about what you mean.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Yeah, an identity hook is kind of what it sounds like. It's whether it's a mindset. I'm gonna go broad stroke on this, whether it's a mindset your own perception of yourself, persona, whatever it might be. It's one of, it's something that we kind of hang our hat on, and most of the time it might be very useful.

But nothing's always useful, right? For the most part. So like it's when you say, I am this or I am that, and you're like beholden to it and you know, as a coach you will work with clients who might open that door for you and you might say, well, how's that working for you? Right? So I think it, these, these kind of.

Concepts, these labels that we give ourselves that can serve us well because it grounds us. It gives us, you know, guardrails and it helps us, you know, kind of identify with who we are and the value that we bring to an interaction, a relationship, a job. But again when our finger is kind of stuck on that play button all the time, it's sometimes you gotta pull it off because it, it's not always been a service.

It's very similar to what I talk about when I talk about leadership styles. I, I've posted about this and I talk about it a lot where I really encourage people to not get married to a leadership style. Be, and I, and I always find it very interesting, I always found it a little even unnerving when someone says, well, what leadership style?

You know, are you, and, and, and I worry about that with new leaders or emerging leaders because they can get stuck like in this. Cattle shoot of these very limited self-limiting behaviors. And that's why even another style situational leadership came about because you just can't, it's not always gonna work.

So what I encourage people to do is, yeah, get it. And listen. I'm gonna tell you, I studied enough about leadership styles and two of my three graduate degrees and all the academia that goes along with it. But at the end of the day, it's helpful to understand and appreciate the different styles, but I.

Really implore people, not get married to a style. Focus on the behaviors that are effective in build your own tapestry of what works for you, but don't get married to a style. And it's very similar with, you know, at a smaller scale and identity hook.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yes. Yeah, it's so interesting you bring up leadership style. So you, you may be familiar with I'll put a link in the show notes listeners for it, but it's, I can't think of the name right now, but it's an HBR article. It was really well researched. It's, it's a bit older now, but I've used it in leadership programs, but it talks about.

the different types of styles, but the need to move and shift amongst them as the situation requires. So it's stuff like democratic, autocratic pacesetter and a and a, there's probably six or seven of them, but it's, it's a really good article to actually, you could even use it as a discussion piece in a.

Senior leadership meeting, right? Like where do you tend to sort of hang out and what else is available to you and how might you shift as the context requires? Same with you know, the, the ident ident identity hooks that can come from these personality assessments because I. It, it, it, it sort of reminds me of Popeye, you know, I ya what I am.

Remember that whole thing? I yam what I am and I've seen that play out in real time. You know, my last organization, one of the most senior leaders would, would run around, they'd use the program colors before I got there. I don't know if you know it, it's, it's pretty, it's, it's not well scientifically validated or, or anything like that.

I, I, I would say, but she would. Literally pronounce, I'm a flaming orange. What color are you? I'm an orange. I'm a flaming orange. And it was, which, which basically means, you know, big thinker, very strategic and like jump on it and results driven, that kind of thing. But it, it almost, it was sort of like a badge of honor.

And I think it could be off-putting for people, especially the more introverted or less confident leaders in the room, right? Like, 'cause they were still trying to figure out, well, what is my identity here? And I think it probably did her disservice because, you know, it's, it's, I use a pers like a personality work style assessment called True Tilt.

And I love the language in the report. 'cause it says, do, do you, you have your personality or. Or does your personality have you? Right. We are not just one thing. We are

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I like that.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Right. It's wonderful.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: you just said that. Yes. Does your personality have you, right?

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Right. You're not one thing. So, you know, tilt is all about agility. How do we, how do we step more, be more of who we are because we have all these things available to us, all these parts.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I think that's the biggest challenge around the identity hook or just falling into this trap of labeling because it becomes self, potentially self-limiting.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Yes.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: the biggest trap door there. Right? That's why.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: too bad.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Too bad. And you know, and, and I think you said it, whenever someone declares publicly, this is who I am or what I am, and I'll go back to something, it is like, is there more? you more, can you be more?

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Well, and it can be used as an excuse. It's almost like, oh, come on. I like, keep up with me. I'm a flaming orange. Like, it was a bit like that, you know? And it, and, and, and I don't, I don't, I think if you're identifying so hard on something that it becomes sort of like, this is why I'm not gonna change.

'cause I don't feel like it. I think that's where it becomes a hook. It's

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Totally, and I'll, I'll go like traditional HR on you for one second and go back 30 years where, well, this is just the way. He is or she is. And it it, that's what the first thing I thought about when you said that because you make excuses for behaviors and you justify them and rationalize them away. We could do that with ourselves too around these personas that we build about around leadership styles.

At the end of the day, again, they just become self-limiting.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: You took me back 30 years, which was the year 1994. I actually came into corporate from a teaching career, which is

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: you made me think, you made me think of that when you said that because you, you, when you think about it, even though it's not a distinct parallel, it, it's like you can always make excuses and it just, it doesn't help you. It doesn't help you become more than who you are and what you are when you hang your hat on a hook.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: I agree. Beautifully said. I loved how you phrased that. Okay. So we could clearly continue down this road and, and, and go all over the place. But we are at, at the end of our time together. So I just, I did wanna ask you one more question, you know, which is around. You had a really pivotal experience as, as a young leader when you discovered just the impact that that one can have as a leader on people's lives.

And I was wondering if you'd share us share with us your Nora story.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I'll make it quick. So that just shows you how powerful it is. I remember the individual's first and last name, and I won't use the last name, but this was when I got, when I entered that first supervisory job, I referenced early on, you know, five years into my work journey and I was in that operator role and I was visiting one of my locations.

And I walked into the center and one of my employees, Nora pulled me aside. She said, can I talk to you? I said, absolutely. And she pulls me off into one of the offices and I said, what's, what's up? What can I do for you? She said, are you firing someone today? And I said, listen, if I have to have a difficult conversation with someone, like even back then I could do that.

I just felt very comfortable doing that. I said, I, I. Certainly don't have a problem talking to, to someone about the performance, but like, what would make you think this, I absolutely not. I'm not here. I'm here to visit you and see if I could help you all out with something or if there's anything you need and just to see how you guys are doing.

And I said, what's, what made you think that? She said, well, usually. When you walk in to visit us, you are smiling. You, I think she may have used the term bubbly, which I, I guess you could use, but, but you know, I'll, I'll mute that one a little bit. But she said, you know, you just, you, she was talking about my energy basically.

She says, and today you came in and you looked really serious. So we started talking and we thought that you may be firing someone. I said, absolutely not. I literally, Lisa, I can remember walking into the parking lot and really reflecting like in the moment, like it almost, you know, like that auto recall, when you have stress response firing, it's almost like I have other recall of that incident, but it doesn't produce stress.

It just rocked me because I thought, oh my God, I'm just a, I'm just a supervisor. Imagine if you're a director or a manager, a VP at any level of vet, VP or a chief. It, it, it, it demonstrated to me that doesn't matter. The level, the, the title doesn't matter. What matters is that I was, they were in my care.

As a leader, and they were so sensitive, and what I realized in that moment was, oh my God, what I say, what I don't say, what I do, what I don't do, and the congruence of all of this. Matters to people. And I went on that journey even before my coaching. 'cause it was still a at that point it was still about seven, six years before I went back.

For my, for, for my first, I should say for my coaching education. I. I went on this journey. I read Drucker, Deming, Collins, Maxwell, Covey, like every book I could read and was self-taught before I entered any of the education we talked about. But I never forgot that and I still talk about that today.

Obviously minor, no experience. And it reminded me that you can never, and I talk to leaders about this all the time, never underestimate how people are sensitive. Reactive or responsive to you? So, and the reason that's important is because we, if you are in a leadership position, a formal position of leadership, at any level, you have a responsibility to how you care for people in the workplace.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Here. Well said. And I, and I think that's just such a great And, and so, you know, listeners, I think you, you, if you're here, you understand that fundamentally, but it would be interesting to see, you know, if you can think of your own Nora story. 'cause certainly I immediately could think of mine.

I won't share it today, but, you know, it could be an interesting one to be able to, to share with leaders who are under your care in your organization. This has been great Larry. Thank you so much. I've really, really enjoyed our conversation today.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: It has been my pleasure to, to meet you again and, and talk to you and your audience. I've really really enjoyed it.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Awesome. Well, maybe we'll see you again sometime on the show.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: I hope so. All right.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate1: Thanks.

Larry Baider GMT20240725-190903_Recording_separate2: Thank you.